BOBBATH

Ta much gustix, was just trying to make sure things are accurate. Comment much appreciated, maybe next time I'm in UK can buy you a pint(may even be able to bring Reg Fearman and Brian Crutcher along)!! Always enjoy your posts too particularly about 1950's-60's riders e.g. Jim Tebby etc.

Just got a note from Andy Povey-Andy contacted Rob Bamford and Rob admitted he got his info. from what may be an incorrect wikipaedia entry-and that was his only source. In light of all the info that has now been submitted Andy's website has been revised to delete Westerberg and reinstate Brian Crutcher as nrr. I stressed to Andy that I thought his website was superb and would undoubtedly become the future historical record-and in raising this issue my only interest was historical accuracy. His commitment to accuracy is probably greater than mine and he appreciates any input re upgrades. If any posters offended by the content of my posts I sincerely apologise.

I'm beginning to wish I'd never brought this up!! But I agree with gustix re historical accuracy is important-for me its Crutcher and Biggs as nrr's and Westerberg to be on next years "I'm a celebrity get me out of here"!

Just sent Andy(sorry re Anthony) what seems to me to be the consensus-unless some evidence surfaces that RW was there-maybe it should remain as Crutcher/Biggs were nrr's (after all they did qualify as such) with a note re Brian Crutcher's absence-and a recommendation that he be retroactively suspended for not showing up that September night 58 years ago!! Anyway glad to hear Brian is still fine-and apparently had a good laugh with Reg re this. Happy New Year to all forumlanders!!!

Before I contact Anthony Povey re this-am interested in the video evidence-question from me- does the line up show Biggs who was definitely there as reserve, or did it include only the 16 "true " qualifiers- if Biggs is shown it would make sense for the other reserve to be shown also-if Biggs not shown-then the other reserve (e.g. Westerburg) might be not shown either. What's the consensus of forum readers- I am sure Anthony Povey would have used the wikipaedia entry as his source for RW.

The item re Bob Andrews has been fixed .Received a nice note from Anthony Povey at Speedway GB who appreciates anybody noticing anything that needs to be corrected Tony is as anxious for historical accuracy as the rest of us and is greatly appreciative of interest in the website. Re previous discussions concerning the 1957 World Final on this website and the listing of Rolf Westerburg as non-riding reserve when most sources indicate the two non-riding reserves were Jack Biggs and Brian Crutcher. Some of the comments on the thread related to Brian not showing up at Wembley due to injury-hence the inclusion of Rolf Westerburg. I contacted my good friend Reg Fearman who in turn contacted Brian Crutcher- Brian's recollection is that he was not injured but thinks he said he was, simply because he was cheesed off at non-qualifying and didn't show up. Reg jokingly pretended to be Major Fearnley when he called and said that he would retroactively suspend Brian for this incident of 58 years ago. Think the statute of limitations may have run out. Will still contact Anthony though to find his source. Reg also did recall Rolf Westerburg as an excellent rider. My interactions with Reg are always extremely enjoyable and humourous and he has a great memory for speedway history- a real gent in my view.

Great to hear Matt, thanks for doing this, as you know I have frequently visited it and used to look forward each update-ta much for all your work-its greatly appreciated

Sadly I think another correction may be in order. The site shows Bob Andrews as appearing as a reserve in 1960 World Final(correct)-but shows him as not riding (incorrect). Actually in Heat 17 he did ride and finished behind Chum Taylor and ahead of Aub Lawson and Henryk Zyto. So Bob got two points and should get credit for this. Bob was always one of my favourite riders and perhaps this could be fixed also.

Gustix my friend,ages ago there was a thread re "who was the tallest speedway rider ever"-this degenerated rapidly into the absurd and became a long running joke at my expense-partly because I mistakenly pressed my answer as Graham Miles multiple times in error( sort of like the guy who pressed 9 instead of 0 for Brian Elliotts' one World Final appearance!!!!!)-so for a while if I posted anything somebody would work into the answer something along the lines of maybe he was the tallest ever rider. Periodically it resurfaces -and I have just been guilty of it (yet again)!! Sorry for lowering the tone of discourse on this website once more!!! Many mea culpas!!

Anybody know how tall a rider Westerberg was???(sorry Norbold)!!

I reckon we have to stay with the multiple sources that list Crutcher and Biggs as reserves and give Westerberg the boot off the website as a 1957 reserve. What was the source that provided his name to the Speedway website in the first place anyway? I think gustix in his last post today hits the nail on the head and thus we have to vote Westerberg off the island

I just realised my post repeats a lot of what Norbold said earlier-would note though that the Speedway Star had Crutcher as first reserve and Biggs as second. BTW does anybody know who the third non qualifier in the qual. rounds who theoretically should have moved up to reserve. Also what is the original source that mentions Westerburg as a reserve (can't find any mention of it anywhere else)and does anybody know anything about RW's career. I think the editor of Speedway Star in 1957 may well have been our friend and fellow poster gustix!!

I'm glad another historical error has been corrected- evidently in this case the incorrect report of the Speedway Star in September 1957. Also two other sources." World Speedway Final- A history from 1929" by Maurice Jones (pub. 1979) and "A History of the World Speedway Championship" by Robert Bamford and Glynn Shailes (pub. 2002).All of these publications list Crutcher and Biggs as the non-riding reserves with no mention of Westerburg. The latter two books I find particularly reliable. The question now becomes who discovered the situation re Rolf Westerburg that occurred in 1957 and was being repeated in reference publications(see second book mentioned) as late as 2002. If true it that means the incorrect answer has been floating around for at least 45 years. So what has changed since then. BTW what is the official source that counts RW as a non riding reserve, was Crutcher injured on that day and didn't show up and what was RW even doing at Wembley that night. Crutcher was listed as first reserve, Biggs as second reserve so I reckon then with Crutcher injured Biggs would become 1st reserve and in theory whoever finished just behind Biggs in the qualifiers should become second reserve. The mystery deepens it seems to me!!

All these points are well taken, and I certainly applaud the effort people have put in to compiling the stats And I am also glad the mistake has been corrected.I would respectfully submit that if the website originator had simply indicated something like "any errors noticed in this section please contact me at xxxx" I would have done so- privately end of story. Sadly this opportunity was not afforded on the site so that's why I posted on this site(it didn't really drive me nuts). If the dedicated guy who did all this work is a poster on this site, thank you for all the work -it is greatly appreciated-but it might be a good thought for the future to enable comments re any possible errors discovered to be directed to the compiler for private correction. Sorry for any concerns this might have caused but at least you know some of us out in forumland do pay close attention to your dedicated work. Thanks for all your efforts and keep up the good work mate. Another possible error in the same section is that it shows R. Westerburg as a non riding reserve in the 1957 World Final- I had not heard this name before , so I looked up the Speedway Star for Sept 28 1957 and this showed two non-riding reserves; Brian Crutcher and Jack Biggs. This time I noticed that the stats were compiled by Robert Bamford who has done a great job.I wonder Robert that if you send me a way of contacting you directly I could avoid bringing these issues up on this website. Rest assured though your efforts are greatly appreciated .

You are quite right Grachan, accordingly I have been to the Doctor who has immediately doubled my medication and you'll be glad to know I'm now in a happy and mellow place!!!!

So I go to the site "Speedway Great Britain"-the official British speedway Website apparently. I then go to the section "World", then to "World Individual Finals 1936-64", then to Rider Index for the World Final Appearances-thinking this is really good. I click on riders beginning with E , look at Bryan Elliott(R.I.P) and immediately see he's been given 9 points in his only appearance in 1960 instead of the correct 0 points. Anybody know how or who to contact to get this corrected-otherwise these errors will remain in perpetuity. This drives me bonkers-. Don't bother to tell me to calm down and get a life as I already know that

Talk to me about senility -you are talking to a guy who can't remember lots of recent stuff!! I started following Speedway in 1964 so never saw PC-people I talked to however reckon he could have gone on into his late thirties-say 1972 or so. Think he was about the same age as Ove and Briggo. Would have been great to see him ride in BL for sure. BTW my vote would be Ove over Briggo (greater consistency).

Great thread , although Sidney I have to correct one thing- PC died in 63 not 62. He was in 63 World Final defending his title but had a rough evening what with one thing and another.

I am extremely sorry to read this -some of you may have read my previous posts and if so will know that Bryan was the first ever NL rider I saw in the golden year of 1965. I remember him winning a barn burner in his first race for the Dukes against Newport at Somerton Park and will in fact never forget it. SO R.I.P. Bryan thanks for the memories and as long as I am on this earth you will always be remembered.

With all due respect re Freddie Williams and Tommy Price- I agree with all that's been said-BUT if the 1949 World Final had been held at Belle Vue and the 1950 Final at Birmingham -we might have been having the same discussion re Jack Parker and Graham Warren being World Champs. Surely Tommy and Fred were Egon Muller type World Champs.

My greatest memory goes back to October 24th 1964. Second Leg of PL Cup Final- CH v. Newport. Newport won first leg at Somerton Park 58-38. Surely we could defend a 20 point lead.. Particularly since between the first and second leg the Heathens Heat leader George Major was injured and unable to ride. As the meeting progressed it was clear some CH riders were determined to win-Ivor Brown got his usual max of 15 pts, John Edwards got 13 from 7!! rides and John Hart also did well. The lead kept shrinking and a 5-1 in last heat could give them a draw-several busloads of Newport fans were there including me. Huge tension, foggy midland night. The last heat ended 4-2 to Cradley -Hart,Bradley,Totney, Erskine -so Wasps lost 57-39 but won 2 pts on aggregate. CH was the first away track I ever visited and I remember the great friendliness of the track and supporters-had a couple of pints with a bunch of them. What an evening. Always had a soft spot for Cradley ever since-still do!

Re point 1 and my comment on this- if you go to the thread on great memories of meetings-its interesting to read Norbold's comment on Wimbledon v. West Ham -cup replay in August 1965 where the Hammers without Hunter or Harrfeldt brought off an amazing upset because Simmons stepped up his riding. I didn't see the meeting but read the report in the Star and still remember what a big deal it was. I recognise the lack of start riders without guests was tough-but sometimes things like this did happen and were very memorable.

I agree whiteknight- as a matter of interest when Sunderland reopened (under Len Silver?) and had people like George Barclay and Jack Millen riding-did they get good support then-by that time I had left UK though

This thread prompted me to look up my programme for Newport v. Wolves in 1965. It was the second completed meeting at Somerton Park -on Easter Monday 19th April. Great meeting, very close Wasps won 41-37. A thing I recall is that the Wolves all showed up with orange jerseys over their and leathers-extremely smart. The second thing is that I got to see my second NL rider-good old Bob Andrews. Bob won his first race as part of a 1-5 with Cyril Francis against Alby Golden and Jon Erskine, but ended the night with 6 points -2 wins and 2 lasts. However here is one for you Whiteknight-the two top scorers for Wolves were Jim Airey with 10 and Gordon Guasco with 8. Great days, warm evening as I recall and close racing. Wolves were indeed a strong team but no question the ex Sunderland riders made a major contribution.

Ta Norbold for checking that out for me-BTW Pie and Mash has got some new fans here in Canada-a bunch of my friends have and are really enjoying it-not only British expats either!! I am charging them 10 bucks a day to read it-cheque follows!!!!!