E I Addio

I suppose you have hit on something that is at the root of a whole range of problems in the sport. Not much hope if that's the case. You have really depressed me now. :cry:

Who were they then ?

That is a very good point. You also have to consider the camera angles. At most TV meetings the cameras are situated mainly at the start and first two bens and are thus facing the parts of the track where least people go. As you say it is easy to make Wolves look busy because you can get a camera shot on an area where most people stand and even a few hundred at that point would probably seem reasonably well-filled, but I have been to stock-car meeting at Arena Essex where there were over 4000 people, with most of them standing on what would be the home straight and first two bends of the speedway track and if TV camera's were in their usual position it would still seem that there were not many people on bend 3 and 4 where the cameras were pointing.

The issue raised by Len Silver 45 years ago, is not guests as such, but it is teams who get guests that are much better better on a particular track than the rider they replace. Poole recent win at Eastbourne is an example of guests making a team stronger, which in devalues the league as a competition IMO. It seems to me that when guests replace a rider in an away meeting the guest should be on the basis of the away average of the rider they replace not the overall average. If a rider has an average of say 8 at home and 6 away giving an overall average of 7, his guest replacement should be a 6 point rider not a 7 point rider. If there is to be any disadvantage as result of a guest then that disadvantage should work against the team with a a rider missing, not favour them as the present system often does.

No. Like everyone else that can't argue on the facts you put words in peoples mouths instead of reading what is actually said. Sky have been around speedway long enough to know what the crowds are like and they haven't suddenly decided in the last two weeks that the crowds are not good enough, and they know that crowds drop on non-race nights. Punters going through the turnstiles don't pay Sky's bills. Sky's income obviously comes from advertisers and that in turn is based on the size of the TV audience not the live audience. In fact Sky's payments to the club reflect the fact that crowds drop when the meeting is on TV A lot of rubbish is talked about attendance figures, usually by people who are not there. Its notoriously difficult to estimate a crowd size and even more difficult when looking at it on TV because the TV camera's don't show all the crowd. At tracks like Wolves it is easy to make it seem like a decent crowd because everyone is in a fairly limited area. If you put the same number of people in somewhere like Coventry or Lakeside it will look a lot less because they are spread out more.

The BSPA was created in the first place because the independent body previously running the sport had made such a muck up more than half the riders in the country were riding in a pirate league.

Why would Sky want a big crowd ? If people are watching at home they are helping the viewing figures and watching the adverts that pay for the meeting. For every person in the crowd that's another person the companies paying for the adverts are not reaching.

Undoubtedly some strange things have happened occasionally in the past ( and Poole 2009 springs to mind) but the context of the discussion is that Moxey 63 who says he hasn't been to speedway for years and never has a good word to say about the modern sport, claims that teams "are" (i.e. present tense meaning this season) throwing points all over the place which implies it is on a major scale and that is all because of the play-offs. I am just intrigued to know how someone who never attends meetings gets this inside information. Which teams are throwing teams all over the place in order to strengthen up? Obviously its not the top three . Could it be Kings Lynn ? I wouldn't have thought so In view of their record ? Lakseside who sacked two assets and incurred loan fees for riders who weren't much better ? Or might it be Poole though I doubt if even Matt Ford would arrange for his World Champion to injure himself so he could be replaced with a lesser rider. Doesn't look to me like any of the bottom 4. I would say its more likely that Moxey 63 knows orion has made him look an idiot and is just grasping at the first thing he can think of, rather than admit he is wrong. The world is full of conspiracy theorists but unless these people produce some evidence to back up what they say then they remain conspiracies and not facts.

In other words you can't tell us which teams in the 2013 Elite League have, to use your own words, "been purposely throwing matches all over the place". Didn't thinks so

I think you'll find that in a lot of sports the crowds are poor when its freezing cold and likely to P down with rain, then they pick up when the evenings get longer and warmer.

http://www.lakesideh...content/?p=6138 Seb has hardly pulled up any trees this year but there's no doubting his commitment.

So, in support of your claim that "teams are purposely throwing points all over the place in order to strengthen up mid-term", the best you can do is to mention a well known episode involving Poole 4 years ago, and an unidentified Midland club strengthening up several years ago, although you can't tell us which matches they were throwing. That's hardly teams throwing points all over the place is it ? You are not doing very well with the point so far, but lets have another try, so specifically :- CAN YOU TELL US WHICH IF ANY TEAMS IN THE 2013 SEASON HAVE DELIBERATELY THROWN POINTS IN ORDER TO STRENGTHEN UP AND WHICH MATCHES THEY DID IT IN ?

Spot on, but unfortunately its a fact of life that the chronic complainers like Moxey63 prefer to ignore because it doesn't suit their argument, or fall in line with their whingeing. Speedway has its problems of course but they will not be solved by turning the clock back in bringing in second halves etc. The term bumper crowds is really a relative expression. If the average present day attendance is 1000 and a local derby brings in 1500 then that is a relatively bumper crowd even if the crowds were twice that amount 15 years ago. The first question to answer is where have all the crowds gone. If most outdoor sports are, as you correctly point out, struggling with crowds compared to 10-15 years ago then that clearly suggests there are other factors involved, such as x-boxes and computers, that are outside the control of the speedway authorities. That's your opinion of Tsunami but your contribution to the topic under discussion the thread is..........?

Really ? Can you tell us which teams were purposely throwing matches mid season in order to strengthen up, and which matches were they doing it in ? Or is that something you can't prove and just made up to suit your argument ?

I don't particularly disagree with any of that. I was not intending to be unfair to Travis as a rider simply illustrating a point that great riders like Leigh are great because they are meticulous in every detail including observing subtle track changes, that's why they learn to ride them all.

I am not saying there is no such thing as home track advantage, just that the concept of it is over-rated, and there is a lot of nonsense talks about it, as if the actual track itself was the most crucial factor. If I am understanding your above post correctly I think I more or less agree with you. Obviously certain riders have different abilities on different tracks and by packing your team with riders who can ride that type of track they will be a strong team at home, but I don't think the tracks themselves i.e size and shape give an inherent advantage that can't be overcome, its more to do with the attitude of the riders. I take your point about Craig Cook and there are a number of riders like that, but he is relatively new to the sport and time will tell whether he can learn to ride different types of tracks. I always remember watching Leigh Adams at Lakeside, he would be standing right next to the airfence every time the track was graded then go out and ride were the tractor had been. Travis McGowan on the other hand, in the same meeting would ride the same line race after race, and come last race after race. That's why Leigh was a great rider and McGowan was an also ran, so, yes I agree rider and track have to match for the advantage but riders can learn to conquer tracks they don't like. Spot on Sidney but its more than a big track/ small track thing. When Lee Richardson was at Eastbourne, he said Lakeside, a very similar size track, was his most hated track in the whole of Europe but he eventually signed for the Hammers because he knew that getting to grips with the track would make him a better rider, and of course history tells us that once he got to grips with it he wanted to come as a full asset. So you are dead right Sidney its all in the mind, but lets not minimise it, its hell of a mentally tough sport and we should cut riders some slack when they don't get their minds round certain tracks.

So how do you define home track advantage ? I think its on the Malcolm Simmons DVD where Simmo said Exeter was so big and fast that a lot of riders were defeated in their minds before they got on the track. Trevor Hedge said something similar about Hyde Road. Is that home track advantage or is were they just tracks that intimidated certain riders ? You mention both Lakeside and Peterborough as being in the top 3 for home advantage but if you take a rider like Kenny Bjerre, at his best he is very good at whichever of the two he rides, but when he doesn't get his head together he is pretty mediocre at both. Is that the rider or the track ? There are many, factors that affect a track even including the type of material used for the racing surface. Any track curator worth his salt (and there are not that many of them around these days) will be able to prepare a track the way the home riders want, and that I would suggest is one of the main determining factors of home advantage. People throw these expressions around like trick tracks and home advantage but getting a consistent definition of what the terms mean is more difficult. According to Stuart Robson, who has a bit of experience in these matters Lakeside is the most physically demanding EL track because of the effort required to turn the bike sharply, but I guess you know more about these things than he does.

http://www.lakesidehammers.co/content/?p=6108 Well done especially to former West Ham and Sunderland rider George Barclay and his wife Linda who always do a fantastic job on behalf of the Ben Fund and have been helping riders for years in many different ways.. Unsung heroes like these working quietly in the background are the real life-blood of speedway and we should all be grateful to them. Well done guys.

TBH I think new rider or not its all a question of whether points can be taken from Kings Lynn. Not often Lakeside are in the frame to take points from Peterboro at the EOES and even less likely Swindon later in the week. As I have said before Lakeside were too slow getting going in the early part of the season, so I can't get too excited about it all now. too many things have gone wrong that shouldn't have gone wrong. Overall I would say it is a season to forget, not just from a Lakeside point of view but also from a speedway point of view.

Apparently not. Due to be in for the Poole meeting at home Friday week, which will possibly be the last home meeting of the season.

That's a good post. If I remember correctly Freddie Lindgren wasn't too hot on the Monmore track when he first arrived but he decided that by being persistent and learning to master it would make him a better rider, and boy didn't it just ! That's the thing with speedway , it is so much a confidence sport, it takes a lot of determination to get on and rider what ever is in front of you.

Quite likely, and it wouldn't be the first time ! Thanks for clarifying.

Instead of blurting out tosh explain how they do have a big home advantage. Explain how riders like Jurica Pavlic and Tomasz Jedrjak scored maximums the first time they ever saw the place if Lakeside is that difficult. Those tracks do take a particular type of skill, and Lakeside is said to be the most physically demanding EL track so those riders who don't use their head or are not fully fit will get caught out, but that's what racing is about. Peter Karlsson was coming down and reeling off big scores long before Lakeside was his home track. Riders like Lindgren, Woffinden, NKI, Holder, etc can hit big scores on all tracks.

I don't quite follow what you are saying, but that's probably me being a bit obtuse. However what I was doing was adopting UK Martins point (which is flawed) and taking his argument that to win at Lakeside you need as many guests as possible who are track specialists, to its logical conclusion. I was pointing out that Swindon won with there regular team, not a team packed out with track specialist guests. In other words quality riders are quality riders, not track specialists. When clubs build their teams at the start of the season they know which tracks they have to visit, so if they pick riders who can't ride a particular track then that's down to the team they pick, not the track. Sour grapes for people to blame the track when their team lose. I spoke to Adam Shields about this a few years ago, and his response was that it was just as hard for him to go to places like Swindon and Coventry and to gate first and stay in front as it was for their riders to come to Lakeside and do the same. Every track has a home advantage because the home riders are able to work on their set ups every week instead of having to work them out on a track walk once or twice a season. The home team also has the advantage of having the track prepared as they want it and that is often a very significant factor, rather like a cricket team preparing the wicket to suit the home side. Good riders are good riders though, wherever they ride.

Orion whose post you were criticising and telling him to get life, never said what Lee did was unforgivable, he simply said it was against the law and we can't pick and choose which laws we obey and which we ignore. Maybe you think it is ok for people to ignore laws they don't like but I don't think it's reasonable to tell someone to get a life because they say they law should be obeyed. Go back and read your post again and reflect on how stupid you made yourself look.