Sidney the robin
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Posts posted by Sidney the robin
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Top class rider i supported him in 75 after he defeated Ashby in the British Final run/off heRay Wilson, hard as nails!!!
was one of my favourite ever riders ever at his best could beat Briggs not. many could.
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I was thinking of the riders of yesteryear that were hard but fair riders.A few come to mind here goes Steve Gresham,Jack Millen,Tommy Roper,Tony Clarke, Arthur Browning,Alan Wilkinson,Ray Wilson,Colin Gooddy ,Mitch Shirra,Ivor Brown some great names there what are your thoughts.??
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2018 Puk, Lambert,Wozniak,J.J,Rose,Auty could that look ok with another signing.?I don't know what average he would come in on could Romano Hummel be considered.
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I would love Chris Morton to return to the Aces in some capacity,a decent man who should be given the opportunity he has earned that right.
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Could there maybe be problems with doubling up? will he give up his weekend commitments a big ask to do that as he is a star attraction.He seems like a real level headed guy who wants to progress think he can improve Poole is th e club to do it at.Quite agree and Matt ford has already said he wants Shanes back so don't really see what Gater1 is going on about but then I rarely do!
Hans is a very good team man who always tries his best even if that isn't quite good enough to beat the top guys he is worth a place in my opinion.
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Persevere with Shanes all year do all the groundwork and then to disgard him would be total madness.I saw him at the Abbey right at the end of the season and he has come on nicely also he is worth his wages on excitement alone personally i would forget about Newman/ Klindt.
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Who was the reserve Rick France an ex world finalist.!!!Look at Sheffields team in 1973, I think our lowest average rider was about 6.75 and everyone in that team could beat anybody, no reserves there just to make up the team
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Well 1973 was a year i enjoyed and the next five years seeing the likes of Mauger,Michanek,Olsen,Crump,Jansson,Collins,Lee was pretty special.It wasn't that i had to search through to find those examples.I looked at 1973,then picked out the first programme v Reading,then i looked at the first programme against Belle Vue,but unfortunately PC wasn't riding.Guess injured.Then looked at the first programme v Wolves and that is what i found
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We can all pick examples like that out it is not hard, how many races have i seen this year when Doyle has been at the tapes and within two laps nearly a straight in front.He is that much better quicker than most and most of the points he did drop was because he was worried about getting injured.Going back to the old format ok the visiting number 1 often got a easy heat 8 t/s ride but his rides against 1/2. 5/4. 3/7. 3/5. were not always easy then teams often had good number three's and often the likes of Collins /Morton at 5 so it was not a cakewalk..Also a massive thing you forget alot of home teams then had a massive home advantage apart from Wolves now and maybe Lakeside the rest now are usually on a even playing field.The tracks then were often more challenging certainly more dirt on them grippier and also you might ride one night at Hyde Rd then the next at Oxford the tracks then were so much more varied alot of teams also then had pretty good homer riders.Give a couple of real examples at Wimbledon in 1973
Reading came for the Spring Gold Cup at the end of May.Michanek went through the meeting unbeaten even in the 2nd half.But in the meeting he came up against
Ht1.Hedge and Harkins.Both on the way down from their best.Hedge still a Plough Lane hero,but had dropped off quite considerably from the 10+ man a few seasons earlier
Ht5 Beat Tony Clarke and Reg Luckhurst.Must have been one of Clarkes last meetings before his custodial problem.Both as above really.On their way down and out
Ht7 Mich comes in to replace Mick Bell and beats Tommy Jansson and Stapleton.Tommy was the one real star Michanek had to face and came on well,but at this stage wasn't really a true top no.1.Stapleton was steady without being spectacular.Not really in Anders class at all
Ht11 same line up for the Dons as Ht7 and same result
Ht13 Mich comes up against Tommy for the 3rd ht in a row who is partnered by Tony Carke
End result Michanek with 15 pts,Tommy with 9.One heat win and 3 seconds behind Anders.4 of Anders heat times were under 62.0.The only rider to do that on this night
On 27th September Wolves came for their BL meeting
Ole got a 15 pt max and was also unbeaten in the second half!
Ht1 Ole beat Jim McMillan and Reg Luckhurst.Now Jim was a good rider,but not in Olsens class,plus wasn't a Wimbledon rider.Only rode the track a couple of times a season and Reg was still the Reg of the Reading meeting
Ht3 Ole came in for Jon Erskine who was missing and beat Harkins and Stapleton
Ht5 Ole beat Harkins and Stapleton yet again
Ht11 Ole beat Hedge and Pete Murray.Nobody would say they were a match for Olsen would they?
Ht13Ole beat Hedge,who was excluded anyway and Stapleton
Again all the fast winning times apart from George Hunter winning a heat under 63.0 were Ole's
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Fundin certainly was finished in the 70s also Briggs after his 72 crash was finished as a WC rider so forget those two riders in the 70s.Also do you mean that Mauger,Collins,Michanek,Olsen (ect just rode against stiffs in the 70s i don't think so.in the heady 60s and 70s Briggs, Mauger, Fundin found themselves in the same heats as people who never progressed beyond reserve/ second string and had v little chance of beating the big names - no names. Thats how the big guys managed to get 11 plus avarages
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A horrible memory was seeing Reading get battered at Hyde Rd i think it was 57-23...? the Aces had a terrific team Mckinna/Courtney at reserve that shows how strong there team was.
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Going back to TV can people remember the Daily Mirror Spring Claasics being televised? it think it was on itv ? I can also remember the Wills Internationale being on i think BBC covered that was trying to look for some footage of the spring classic without any success.
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the Russians were poor in 1974 sid. I saw them get battered in the Wimbledon test match. Thommo was in the England side that day.[/quoteHow are you ?hope you are good Thommo what a rider loved watching him heart on sleeve but at his best was bloody good remember when he beat Lee 1983 Hackney v Poole ? -
Lee and Gollob for me are very similar both had real natual talent but both UNDEACHIEVED and should of achieved more.But when you look back both ended up with decent records in WC competition Gollob in his race with Jimmy Nilsen (what a race) shows him at his very best.Lee/Collins both for me would get in a top 20 they were that good going back to Gollob i was so glad when he won his title because it would of been a travesty if he hadnt.Agree Tai Hancock pedersen all in the top 30 of all time and all ahead of gollob.
Gollob for me is one of the greatest single world champs, but Id rank him behind Collins and perhaps Lee, though ahead of the likes of Doyle and Michanek.
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Nielsen i was never a fan of his but in later years he grew on me i see alot of him at Oxford.What a rider a class act a class bloke as well i also remember him as a superb team rider he helped Sorensen,Rasmussen,Dugard,Butler develop.When you look back he should of won 6/8 titles he was that good he would be in my top 6 of alltime no one around at the moment comes close to Hans.Very surprised at your view Deano as you are someone close enough to know many of the things that went on behind the scenes and the views Tai has on riding in or for Britain and thought you would be more backing him than this as many of your posts are not a million miles away from his opinion too.
There have been some pretty tough line ups in recent years and don't think he was fortunate in any way as he came in at a time many thought he would fail due to the quality of riders around at the time.
Two world titles in line ups that were arguably the best fifteen riders at the time with very few exceptions while many a World Title has been won on a one day format racing against Continental riders that were way below standard and some others just scraping through to the finals.
Hans Nielsen, Greg Hancock, Nicki Pedersen, Tai Woffinden all deserve to be alongside these as their records show they beat the best in front of them and while Nielsen won the majority before the GP Series, he would have won considerably more had the GPs come in ten years earlier.
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Was there quite alot of training schools going on in the late 60/s 70s ? Belle Vue,Ellesmere i know Broady had one at Swindon.Wouldnt it be great if we had that now that would certainly help us produce young riders in Poland are most tracks available seven days a week.?
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Will Thommo sign a few copies before the launch as i probably wont be able to get there be great if he could.I can remember Thommo riding for England v Russia 1974. i think ??? at the Abbey.Frank Auffrett also rode i can remember thinking god those Russians have some shabby aquipment but god they were great value real battlers.
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Well i am happy with this post fair play to you,my main point was sticking up for the era a fun time for the sport and a time that will be hard to better.Sid, I'm not getting involved in one of your petty squabbles which always end with you imploding, wanting a fight and then getting banned.
You cannot argue with what I have said because it is mathematical fact.
The 70's was a fantastic era, nobody is denying that. The big league played a very big part in that, helping to create more star riders, not really sure why that's so hard to understand?
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Where did you go from 1979 ???? because you are pretty limited you did not watch much racing in the 80s did you Witcher your time was Sudden Sam time and PK YES ?? 90s.😜😂Sums it up in a nutshell... now had the leagues not joined and the top flight had continued with a small number of teams for the next decade or so, a great number of those 9-9.5pt riders wouldn't be remembered in the same vein.. Why? Because they'd have been 7pters.. not big hitting heat leaders.
The simple facts are, and it is a fact, not an opinion, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you will have, regardless of the ability of the riders in question.
No my first meeting was in 1979.
Not that it is anyway relevant, you're trying to argue against Math Sid, and you simply can't.
Iris has already demonstrated the difference a larger league makes.
Where
Do you deny that the more you see a rider win races the better you think he is?
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Witcher like every subject you debate you want to win fair play to you for that but the biggest thing that really strikes me with you is you have commented on riders you did not even see ride was your first meeting in the early nineties.???!You can't 'forget' figures.
You remember them as good riders because the majority of the time you saw them winning races. Had they not been winning races regularly you wouldn't remember them as good riders. It's not a difficult concept.
Again you are wittering away about the British Leagues of today, which are irrelevant to this conversation. We all know the British league is much weaker and it is the worse for it.
Never fear though, Jonathan Chapman thinks excluding any rider who averages above six will see the fans come flocking back...
Put it this way, it's like saying 6pt riders now get places in the Polish league easily....
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Those i named i think would of been good in any era the bottom line is i remember them as good riders forget figures we can all dress them up the difference then was every week you looked forward to seeing a top class number 1 now there are Doyle/Lindgren that is it a WATERED down product.Another point is i believe some of the riders today would not of been able to handle the tracks with loads of dirt on them todays speedway is so different.Sid, you're getting confused. I haven't said today's paltry offering is anywhere near the levels back then. The comparison you have to make is with the current top level, which is Poland or Sweden.
It doesn't matter how many riders you list, it's an irrelevance. In a 20 team league, you're going to have 60 heat leaders. In an eight team league you will have 24. The actual 'standard' of the rider doesn't come into it or effect those numbers. Throw in the fact the heat leaders raced each other a lot less and their status grows.
I can absolutely guarantee a large number of those riders you list you wouldn't consider 'stars' if they raced in a similar format to that of today. Their ability as a rider doesn't change, but your perception of them and their 'star power' most certainly does.
You only have to look back when we last had one big league, a rider such as Charles Ermolenko was an 8.5pt heat leader.. had the league stayed that size throughout his career he would be remembered 20 years later in a much higher regard than a 5-6pter that he was when the league shrunk in size again.
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1970/78 heat leaders i will miss some Betts,Kilby,Mauger,Briggs,Michanek,Lovaas,Persson,Eide,Davey,Sanders,Louis,Boocock 2) Collins,Sjosten,Jansson2) Wilson 2) Younghusband,Loftqvist,Wyer,Haley,Thomas,Morton2) Middleton, Moore, Olsen, Simmons,Jessup,Davis,Lee, Airey,Autrey. Pusey ,Ashby, Mcmillan,Beaton i have missed endless other riders out to.That was the level i remember not to bad for wobblers 😜 this year lets be honest the top class riders in Britain were Doyle/Freddie that was it then the next level are the likes of Cook,Thorssell,Fricke,Morris (ect)As i said before the two leagues now are closer than ever would i would pick the 1970/86 era over now i would all day long.That is the entire point.
An 18-20 team league gives the impression of there being a multitude of top class heat leaders.
Craig Cook is one prime example.
Again you are talking about Britain, that's irrelevant on the World Stage.
You 'think' the riders were better solely because of the size of the league. The bigger the league, the more higher averaged riders you will have, the more you see them win, the better you think they are. That's simply mathematical fact.
In an 18-20 team league, with no Heat 13 or Heat 15 it is again simple maths that teams will have an out and out number 1 and a couple of decent heat leaders.
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Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION.Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.
Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.
I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.
As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.
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Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.Pray, tell me how you judge how good a rider is? Ah yes, how many races he wins.. as such, if you're racing against a lower overall standard, you're going to win more races, doesn't mean you are better.
Your thinking is completely flawed.
Next you'll be claiming how strong a league was because of all the 10pt heat leaders!
You don't remember very well then do you.
There were plenty of 'wobblers' riding at reserve.
As for tough? It was a better standard, but nowhere near the level of the Polish league now.
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Hard Riders Of The Past Any Thoughts?
in Years Gone By
Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin