mikebv
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Posts posted by mikebv
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7 hours ago, DC2 said:Drew Kemp?
Not seen enough of him to be honest. However, he does run an 8 point plus average so must be 'up there' with the better teenagers..
Anders Rowe appears to be another who could move on to bigger things..
It does appear that some real focus is being given to these lads with organised track days, advice on diet, mental health support, and the opportunity to listen to and learn from experienced top line performers, so let's see if it pays off for the sport..
No point doing it though if places are then filled by riders from overseas, rather than creating a framework for the lads to develop, and sticking with them as they progress...
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Great racetrack Brisbane..
Another one of those more circular ones that always seem to deliver great racing..
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42 minutes ago, arnieg said:Pretty much what I conclude to. The key test is how are they doing compared with their peers, and I discuss this here:
Interesting info Arnie..
For me, the UK does miss a huge trick by not ring fencing U21's at Championship level.
Each 2nd tier team should have been made to have two U21 reserves for the past two decades..
Similar to Poland and their ring fencing of their riders..
If they had done I am sure there would be many more UK riders taking slots in the two top leagues, and less DU'ing and Guests needed..
The natural progression then would be the top tier team to have at least three British riders per team as the U21 riders developed..
Nothing delivers media coverage like a successful national team, especially in such a small sport in the UK as Speedway, where, without being disrespectful, some clubs are unknown even in their own towns and cities..
Winning the SON regularly would raise the profile of the sport in the UK massively, meaning the clubs could feed off the back of it...
Similar to the way Cricket, and Rugby Union, domestically have grown through National success on the World stage, and Cycling became a 'boom sport' through the likes of Boardman, Wiggins, Hoy etc...
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Taking Robert Lambert as already a 'star' given he has been in the GP's, rode Polish top division, and held his own at SON level, (but still has much potential), my picks would be Dan Bewley, Jordan Palin and Leon Flint...
To reach the higher echelons of say top 25 in the world, the glide path for UK riders seems to be that usually within four or five years of starting, they are riding (comfortably) at heat leader level in the top league in the UK..
Bewley is already there at that heat leader level and now needs to make an impact overseas, and I think Palin and Flint show the potential to go a long way in the sport..
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On 4/13/2020 at 2:40 PM, Richard Weston said:Anyone know what Peter Schroek was suggesting re riders in the Lynn News? Seems as if he was suggesting local riders riding for local teams when (if) season gets going?
The Royston Vasey Vikings...
"This is a local club for local people"....
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You can either...
Take £482 a point and what is still a very large signing on fee...
Or wait and see if there's any racing in the UK and, even if there is, ride for a hell of a lot less....
Decisions... Decisions..
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7 hours ago, Speedtiger said:Ok, that’s all well and good saying that but he should explain exactly what he’s “working so hard” on what are future plans and let fans judge if he’s doing a “good job”. As I said history shows he is incompetent and way out of his depth and hasn’t done much to promote British Speedway.
I think to be fair to any of those who run the sport, they are not 'proper' sports' administrators...
Just well meaning people who find themselves leading others of the same persuasion..
The top sports have a separate leadership team from the owners of the clubs, which means professionals can be brought in to strategically move the sport forwards. With their performance being measured by the owners..
Many of these people will get their positions through previous experience in similar roles and (possibly most importantly), a list of business and media contacts who can get the cut through needed to generate the right financial backing and publicity..
Speedway (in the UK), has never countenanced such a notion, preferring to keep everything 'in house', within the 'speedway bubble', therefore we have what we have..
I seem to remember, (maybe last year), a measure of success quoted was 'all clubs surviving'..
Maybe, even though appearing to be an incredibly low aspiration, that is indeed an achievement given where the sport currently sits in the UK within the wider sporting arena?
Whoever is 'in charge', without all the wide and varied infrastructure needed, and a team of people around you with the required skill set to 'run a sport', leaving you to plan strategy, and be the figurehead, it must be a difficult, and maybe even a thankless task..
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23 hours ago, Mimmo said:My wife is suffering this badly, because as she has double lung cancer and is currently on a 21-week course of chemo, she's not even allowed to leave the house for a 10-minute stroll.
Now with the government saying that social distancing will have to remain in place for the rest of the year, we've been told that must remain within the confines of our own home for that length of time. I won't go out and leave her on her own, so we're both prisoners for the rest of 2020, and I'll find that mentally difficult, there's no two ways about that.All the best Mimmo..
I am at the other end of the spectrum and only just getting days off again after a month or so, due to the tens of thousands of customers who have wanted serving..
Therefore I cannot begin to understand what such isolation must mean..
Hope you can stay strong for yourself and your good lady...
Best wishes. .
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10 hours ago, FAST GATER said:IMO Britian could go on it's own with regard to machinery ,it is one of the main elements that could be changed and would have a great effect on costs within the sport.We have to accept that for the short term the sport will to all intents and purpose be semi pro to survive ,a half decent rider should be able to adapt to riding diffent engines( at grasstracks rider have 250/350/and 500 cc bikes) in the case of say Polish riders wishing to race in this country .Just like the smaller tracks we have here they may just see it as expanding they experience and ability to make them better riders .
I've said before on here..
British Superbikes dont try and compete with their larger 'cousin' World Superbikes..
They do share many technical characteristics and sometimes share competitors, (but ensure they dont fixture clash!), but it's a completely separate Competition..
They seem to do 'ok' with a mainly domestic and antipodean rider base, with the odd European or Asian rider who usually will be domiciled in the UK..
Some riders will be returning from bigger Championships at the latter end of the careers, (which can boost fan numbers when a 'legend' returns), some will stay at that level, and some will aspire to move on and use the BSB as a 'stepping stone' to improve themselves to move on to bigger things..
A situation they accept and plan for by running several support classes to ensure talent comes through to replace those who move on.
A clear joined up strategy from novice to top level rider, with clear demarcation of what level each rider is at so the racing will reflect the closeness of rider capability..
No reason, for me, why British Speedway couldn't use this as a blueprint to devise their own strategy..
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16 minutes ago, stevebrum said:No figures to back that theory up, and I’ve read that comment before. I’ve been to both nights and whilst Cradley had great attendances they were no way ‘better’ crowds.
Cradley in their own stadium would hands down top any attendance figure imho. Plenty of Cradley fans won’t go to Wolverhampton to support Cradley which just goes to show how dedicated their fans are if they were ever able to come back on their own.
If all teams had fans like Cradley ones the sport would be in a healthy place. Although I’m baulking at the idea that any general speedway fan has the displeasure to admit being from Cradley.
Anecdotal evidence from a mate of mine who lives in Wolverhampton and used to go most weeks in the first couple of years of Cradleys tenure. ..
As a generic speedway fan he went to both Wolves and Cradley and felt the Heathens had more, although of course that could have been when Wolves were having a less than succesful time and some weeks were exceptions..
No doubt I would say that if they did get a track their crowds would still even now be one of the best in the sport..
Used to see lots of them at Stoke, Buxton and Belle Vue when they visited so still a large amount of interest in them...
Still miss the roast pork van....
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On 4/21/2020 at 2:43 PM, noaksey said:This weeks is the best for some time
Excellent edition...
It's a true credit to the sport..
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9 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:No, it clearly isn't, congrats for posting something that is actually posted in a readable structure though, a nice change.
Or
Should that be
a
nice
change
Are these lighter nights keeping you up a bit later than usual..?
Sorry..
Later
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10 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:That is just patently nonsense.
Filibustering gibberish...
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12 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:It is still relevant to the general point which is - people will turn up regardless of who is on show, yes they will, just not many, or for that matter even close to as many.
As an addition re what you are saying, if it was a truism the promotion would be best served not bothering their time with the Premiership and simply going Championship.... same crowds, less costs etc - they don't and it will be decision mad from far sounder grounding that which you are saying, which only further shows to say what you are saying is really what you wish to be true rather than that would be.
If the Championship was the 'only ticket in town' and the Aces ran at weekends, then crowds would be better than on a Monday or a Thursday night..100%..
Hence the business plan from Messrs Gordon and Morton to the council made it crystal clear that the race night change from Monday and Wednesday was fundamental to their success..
The first year, riding at weekend in the main, they averaged around 1800 which was a massive increase on the previous year at the old place..
Unfortunately over 2000 was their break even budget outlined in their submissions..
The past two seasons haven't seen them get close to an average of 1800 I believe...
Maybe, just maybe, Monday, Wednesdays and Thursdays are not as good?
Or maybe it's having no Matej Zagar after year one?
Going back to the Colts, if they were the only Speedway team going in Manchester, they would still get very decent crowds at weekends I would say..
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15 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:This video suggests you are talking absolute bollocks - date, a Friday night - there is next to no one thereto simply go out and see the Aces race no matter the rider in the jacket.
It's a Colts meeting though, not a Championship level one which I believe the Aces could run well on a Saturday night..
And having been to many Colts meetings they do get crowds of around 400 to 500 I would say, so not too shabby..
Obviously the back straight isn't used..
Good to see you on here though Oscar Wilde...
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45 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:Doyle was not World Champion at Leicester. I think you only have to look at two factors as to why the crowds increased at Leicester last year.; 1. The change back to Saturday nights, 2. A winning team for the first time since the club returned in 2011.
For Leicester to continue to grow their crowds they need to keep on winning & remain "a Saturday nght club" then hopefully we can get back to the level of support we received in the first three seasons, or even higher.
Which to get back to their initial success levels means second tier racing for me..
Too much of a risk to go top tier again given the way attendances dropped off..
For me, there should be a 'natural selection' used..
Over 1000 fans on average over a season each meeting and you should be top division
600 to 1000 and you run 2nd Divison..
Less than 600 should be NL..
Organic growth then dictates levels. If you start to get more fans then go up a level, if you get less, then drop..
Natural selection..
And race on whatever night you want to..
Whichever night brings the most punters in..
Not on ones that you are made to because your 'employees' tell you that's the only days they can make it.. (That's madness).
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1 hour ago, DC2 said:But there’s no evidence that the first caused the second.
Spot on..
In the past 30 years attendances have steadily declined overall and for much of that continual decline we had the 'world's best' riding, which, to keep them, meant regular inflation busting admission increases year on year, which in no small part, resulted in less followers..
The Premiership clubs get the best attendances because there is a 'natural' selection based on the history of each club, not because of 'who is there'..
If the Aces dropped down for example, and rode on Friday or Saturdays, there certainly wouldn't be any less there than currently, and quite possibly many more given how many attended 'weekend Speedway' the first year in the NSS. Therefore the Aces have enough followers to be 'top division'..
Glasgow I would suggest now get close to, if not better than, some Premiership clubs' attendances with 'lesser' riders (although many are the same!), so they are becoming a bigger name in the sport after historically being one of the 'lower league clubs'. After a few years of this they too may become 'naturally' a top division team if the crowds keep at those levels..
Leicester dropped a division, lost the World Champ, changed nights and improved crowds. Meaning their 'natural level' to be successful as a business is, I would suggest, the second tier..
And Cradley in the NL had better crowds than Wolves and if they had a track to race on would immediately be top division I would say given that's their 'natural' level given their crowd numbers...
Some clubs in the second division could have Nikki P and Jason Crump riding for them next year and after a month I can virtually guarantee crowds would be pretty much as normal, because that is their 'natural level of crowd', hence they stay where they are..
Bringing 'big names' back wont bring 'big crowds' back.
Because when they were all there, big crowds became smaller crowds..
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1 hour ago, foamfence said:Crewe and Crayford where in the days of uprights, these days you have laydowns struggling to negotiate tracks that were OK for uprights but are too narrow and the wrong shape for laydowns (with a very small number of exceptions). We've had loads of Speedway meetings on YouTube etc over the last few days, some of them were advertised as 'great meetings' and as someone who started his Speedway involvement in the early 50s, I quite looked forward to them but in the main it's been a borefest. I hope it has a future but I see it more as a part-time or amateur sport here, as it is it's unsustainable.
Watched loads of recent meetings on YouTube and there is a huge clear difference between the racing standards from track to track..
In no particular order..
The NSS, Somerset, Redcar, and Scunthorpe seem to have the majority of their races close and with passing, with Glasgow, Berwick and Peterborough having several 'very decent races' in the next level down..
Not seen too much from anywhere else to be honest other than an odd decent race per meeting, with some tracks getting you to 'move on' to the next coverage after four or five heats such is the lack of any close action post bend two..
It must be hard to sell the racing at some tracks..
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5 minutes ago, HGould said:Mike,
I love reading your posts and respect your views very much.
To consider though that any but a handful of CL tracks would break even let alone make money for such an event would be more accurate an assessment.
I don't get the obsession with finals at the NSS either?..
I think a lot of promotors with a September start will be thinking 2 local derbies home and away to cut costs optimise crowds and make few quid for the long winter as season tickets and sponsorship next winter just not going to happen.
I am sure your idea will be nearer the mark than mine HG..
I just think the sport has a truly once in a lifetime unique situation to reinvent itself, work together for the overall good and try something different..
Riders too would need to play ball and agree to ride here, there and everywhere over a few weeks..
I could just imagine what the promotion team down at the Isle of Wight would do if they had the likes of Messrs Cook, Nicholls, King and Harris riding there. It would be the talk of the island for years and would generate loads of publicity for the track...
And maybe Woffy could visit too as a wild card! It would be like a royal visit by the time Barry Bishop and the rest had finished with it!!.
For far too long promoters have looked insular, always delivering their own individual narrow agenda as a priority. A tiny agenda in the grand scheme of team sports given Speedway's small following from track to track..
This could be a chance to 'sell the sport' itself nationally and see where that takes them...
45000 plus go to Cardiff each year so there is still a very sizeable following out there if more of them can be persuaded to attend domestic speedway more regularly, so put an operating plan together which may attract them to do so..
As for the NSS?, for me it's simply the racing and the facilities it delivers..
And if you want to showcase a major final then it ticks two major boxes, with the third major box ticked being it's held very close to a major city centre that has excellent transport links and plenty of hotel rooms..
Not many other tracks can deliver all that I would say..
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6 hours ago, jchapman said:I agree that team meetings should be written off, however if the government restrictions allow it I would hope a few open meetings could be held before end of October
With 22 clubs in total in the UK, and around 50 British riders of a 'top three division' level (some taking a break from the sport, some recently retired but may be tempted back?), would it possible for every club to put in say £5k and run a £110,000 prize fund British Championship? Using the sponsorship money already agreed for the season with their sponsors?
Lots of qualifying meetings around the country. (One a week at each track). But advertising the "£110k Big Prize" in all their promotion of each individual event?
Paying out an average £600 a night per rider in the qualifying meetings, running a 12 man entry, and that's around £9k you would need to take to pay the riders and pay the VAT..
Would you get away with around 12k costs in total per night?
(Maybe rents could be renogotiated given stadium owners will have had zero income?)
If so 800 paying £15 would cover costs..
Riders would get to ride four or five times a week around the country (maybe more but five times would get the 'Mr Average' rider £3k a week), and the sport could advertise a "Big Time" prize fund which may generate some added interest from others outside of the sport, or, more likely maybe, lapsed fans or non regulars...
If any 'top name' non British riders are available, maybe domiciled over here, and happy to race for the money, they could either be 'guested' in for the odd night as a wild card whose scores won't impact the overall competition. (Similar how other motor sports like BSB let a world level competitor compete in a National Championship on an ad hoc basis), or, if they can commit to the full competiton, take a place in the line up. (Plenty of UK based overseas riders have rode in, and won BSB Championships)..
Run the Final for £110k at the NSS with the top 16 riders from all the qualifiers..
Plenty of racing for British lads in particular, plenty of money to be earned riding several nights a week, and a massive prize fund with which to increase the sports' standing and hopefully deliver a huge crowd (and media coverage), for the final...
Whatever Speedway we do get (if any) those who run it should spend this time thinking outside of the box and how best they can make a huge impact when 'normality' returns, as they will be fighting against other sports relaunching themselves too, and there will only be so much 'leisure money' available to be spent. .
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47 minutes ago, MattK said:You have drawn a conclusion, without knowing how the question was asked. If people were asked for their top reason, then you cannot say only 40% are interested in teams/riders.
The question mentioned that was asked in the thread was 'Why did they attend Speedway meetings?'
I presume it was the No1 reason for your attendance requested at the time given the amount of diverse answers from the fans..
I would suggest that there are even a greater number nowadays that attend Speedway who go for 'the racing' rather than treat the league seriously and get that emotional attachment to any result.
Getting these people to go more regularly is the key to success, as those who go because they still feel an affinity with their team will go anyway..
The 800 to 1000 or so die hards at most top league tracks will always be there, wearing their scarves and badges and talking about the 'good old days'.
Its the floating 800 to a 1000 who go along now and again which will make a huge difference to the sports finances if they became regulars..
The sport should work together as a collective on finding out what prevents these fans of the sport going more regularly..
And then act upon it accordingly, together..
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2 hours ago, *JJ said:I don't see this. In my team, when we went into the Elite League, two 'star riders' made themselves cordially disliked; and they didn't cause any increase in attendances. Then, when the team dropped into the third division, there wasn't any drop in the crowds. More often, IMO, what causes the crowd to diminish is perpetually losing teams, like another team in the Midlands.
Interesting that the old 15 year survey on another thread had only 30% of fans attending in the main to 'support their team', and only 10% went based on the quality of riders on show..
And that was when more 'top names' rode over here..
Therefore, presuming the %'s are still similar, (and I would think they are not a million miles away), what an opportunity to put on 'entertaining Speedway' in whatever guise it can..
When 70% go and watch and are not unduly bothered which team wins, then they are a real target market for each track to have them go away thinking "that night was great, I'll be back next time"..
The promoters should spend this down time working out how to deliver 'a great night out' when the sport returns, rather than spending time getting slide rules out to determine whether 'Rider A' can guest for 'Rider B' in a meeting that only 3 in 10 fans in attendance are bothered who wins...
A huge opportunity for fundamental radical change..
Will it be taken?
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3 hours ago, arnieg said:I knew I had this info somewhere - just come across this.
[NOTE - it is 15 years old but given the high proportion of long term fans it seems unlikely to have changed much]
70% of people who attend speedway meetings are male and 30% female. 20% bring their children
81% attend 10 or more meetings per season confirming that the sport is down to its hard core fans.
Speedway fans are not particularly high earners with 31% earning below £20k and 39% earning between £21k – 40k. Their relatively low socio-demographics are also confirmed by the fact that 63% read The Star, The Sun or The Mirror.
Also 31% have no qualifications and another 45% are educated to GCSE/O Level. Only 9% hold a university degree.
17% are 19-24 years old, 21% 25-34 years old and 23% 35-49 years old.
All in all, this does represent a segment of society which is not particularly interesting to sponsors.
Around 20% of people attend meetings with their kids, 63% with family adults and 72% attend with 1-3 other people.
What is interesting is the response the respondents gave when asked why attended speedway meetings:
Support the home team 30%
The atmosphere 23%
A good night out 20%
Quality of the teams 10%
Family night out 6%
Other 11%
Total 100%
source : 2007 Marketing Report commissioned by BSPA
So only 40% used to go to follow a team or go because of what quality of riders were there...
And that was 15 years ago when more "names" were riding in the UK..
It really shows for me how important an overall entertainment package must be in keeping the majority 60% happy, and also shows how misguided promoters sometimes are focusing the majority of their time, energy and money on getting their teams right (all to try and win competitions hardly anyone cares about), instead of putting all that focus and investment on getting their entertainment package right each week...
As you say, the % figures probably haven't changed much in the ensuing fifteen years, apart from obviously how many fewer people now make up that 60% than did then..
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Some of the 'old stuff' on YouTube wouldn't get seen in a good light by a wider non Speedway audience if shown on the mainstream channels, simply because so much of it was filmed with production qualities which were 'wedding video' standard, and many commentaries were pretty average, done by well meaning amateurs...
No fault of whoever produced them, that was just the technology of the time outside of the main TV channels..
Even the newly formed Satellite company's old work looks well dated (as done in SD), and often one camera action...
Watching the many meetings available does though show that, for me, so much of what we have today is at least as good, and often better, racing wise, than the 'old stuff', and some of the production standards are excellent..
I would suggest a decent marketing team could make something out of the raw material of the racing and would be able to make personalities out of the riders if given a chance...
Employing one of them to do a joined up national advertising campaign using the best clips from today during this 'down time', would be far better for the sport than just putting out random Speedway on TV (to a mainly non plussed audience), I would say..
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Who are the future stars of British Speedway?
in National League Speedway
Posted
It's more the opportunities to ride that I think lets the lads development down..
There will always be the naturally gifted, and their talent will move them through the levels, but it's the next level of riders that need more track time and more assessing themselves against better riders to make gradual, incremental progression..
And that opportunity can only be improved by giving them ring fenced places to take away the intense pressure of losing their team place due to a few poor meetings..
Also the domestic leagues are desperate for more 'average' British riders to take places that currently get taken up by 'average' foreign riders, whose non availability due to home country requirements can often mean a disjointed fixture list..
The more British riders in the leagues the better the sport will be as supply will eventually overtake demand, something which currently helps dismantle the sports credibility when it comes to guests in particular and the use of DU when fixtures clash, not to mention the natural premium on cost of demand exceeding supply..
ie. When your the only real option for a certain team place I am sure you can ask for more than the position would ordinarily warrant....
Let's hope the focused development these lads seem to be now getting will be supplemented by several team places guaranteed for them..