mikebv
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Posts posted by mikebv
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On 4/3/2020 at 1:18 PM, Crabba59 said:That's the big problem with polish speedway the money they give big riders signing on fee its stupid. Now with what's happening in the world. They will not have the money to giveaway? Will be interesting to see how the riders react.
If there is any racing, I can see the Poles pretty much using every night available, using all except maybe Tuesday..
The TV stations will want to show as much live sport as they can post lockdown and the sponsors will want as much exposure in whatever time is left to run a season.
And riders obviously will want to ride as many times as they can for the clubs that will be paying the most..
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3 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:This is why if the main event in british speedway was an individual championship for British riders all the promotion can go into this and developing stars no matter whether they end up in poland or not then interest could then drop to local teams etc as well
And the more British riders that get success, the better the national team becomes..
And the better the national team becomes, the more the mainstream media are interested..
The more the mainstream media are interested, the more domestic speedway can feed off the back of it..
The cricket and rugby union's organisational leaders saw this year's ago and brought in central contracts for their elite so they could control their training, diets, health and well being etc, and development plans to bring through home grown talent to ensure that if the elite go off into other more lucrative playing zones, that a conveyer belt of talent is there to replace them...
They knew that nothing generates high media interest in their respective sports more than a strong, successful national team, and then, on the back of that, they would get better crowds and sponsorship for their domestic game..
Saracens, Wasps, Leicester etc winning the Championship in Rugby, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Essex etc winning the County Championship in Cricket. Won't bring anywhere near the coverage for either sport that a World Cup win would bring for the national team.
Their respective organisations knew this and did something about it..
UK Speedway instead seemingly must have had a plan to help train up every other Speedway riding nation's riders, often replacing UK riders to do so..
All to try and win a title, that the only recognition you get is a buffet in the town hall and a selfie with the mayor..
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31 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said:When I used to run a regional MMA promotion we knew we could not get the big names domestically as they were all signed to domestic shows who had the TV deals for which there were really only two of those.
So we focused on amateur talent plus those upcoming professionals who could use us as a stepping stone for the big show.
So in terms of selling shows the fighters actually sold the tickets for commission to friends, family and fans however we still had to promote the event to the locals or casual fans who didnt have a personal connection
So we basically used the local talent and promoted them to sell the show and to make them "stars of the show" who people would recognise over time
We had the local fighter who become known as the guy fighting in the blue and white star shorts
Another guy was a polish fighter who was part of the olympic wrestling squad in the past who walked out to a polish rap performer doing his ring walk
A local young lad who had the look and the body that women die for
The local ticket seller whom sold 220 tickets to the shows that had a 1000 capacity as he was so well known if you didnt buy a ticket to watch him you'd at least recognise his face on a poster
We developed mini stars in our catchment area that people came to see... many loved the polish guy and people would say theyve come to watch Rafal... plus having a big local polish community... it drew people in to watch their countryman
One of my amateur champions has just signed to the UFC and the guy in the star shorts has just lost a title fight in the biggest promotion in europe. The same belt that was once held by Conor McGregor
Most have gone on to perform on the biggest platforms across Europe.
So with domestic speedway stars and personalities can be created through the right promotion and the special thing about speedway is the opportunity for rider and fan interaction
Even lots of "top class" boxing matches will have an under card of several "local lads"..
The main reason being the promoters know that they will sell tickets..
Many of them will shift 250 and more and at that rate, having just four local lads on the bill will get you 1000 or more punters in. (Which even at a discount rate of 30 quid or so is still a pretty penny)..
Speedway in the UK, instead of focusing on having local lads and building their profile, seems to spend hours rearranging fixture lists to ensure a boat load of average journeyman Frenchman, Swedes, Danes, Germans, Slovaks, Italians, etc etc etc all get to race when they tell us they are available..
Names that will mean very little in their own towns and countries never mind locally in towns and cities in England or Scotland..
A very strange plan..
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40 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:Dinosaurs - that perennial favourite of children and families have fallen out of favour Brian, with The Powers That Be within UK speedway and there is little enthusiasm ( it appears ) to see elderly, grey haired old un's staggering to their place on the terraces and needing to use the loo more often. It doesn't also seem to matter that we have been handing over our cash for 50 years plus. The speedway sporting hierarchy appears to have written them off. But, I am happy to see the old un's put to one side ( to some extent ) if it means the healthy survival of the sport in the UK. But there should always be a concession for the elderly who contributed to the days when promoters took shed loads of money home with them.
Dont think anyone is having a go at '50 somethings' or even older fans to he honest.
Being one of the 50+ brigade myself that age group is the life blood of the sport and pretty much keeps its struggling heart beating..
However, 10 years ago it was us then '40 somethings' that were the life blood of the sport and it's clear to see not all have continued with it since then..
Me included..
And those of us who no longer bother with domestic league racing, but still attend around 10 meetings a year (domestic FIM events, some overseas trips, and never miss a TV meeting including every Polish top division fixture), simply haven't been replaced by any demographic..
And that is the problem the sport in the UK has..
Personally for me I now get my 'live' Speedway fix at bona fide meetings which actually mean something, and then watch the domestic league via the TV, not ever caring who wins but with an attitude of "its Speedway racing so I will watch it" and I can watch it with zero emotional attachment to the outcome..
I wouldn't pay £18 quid a meeting to watch it live though..
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38 minutes ago, cityrebel said:There are some tough decisions that need to be made regarding the future of the NL. Will the current clubs that run two teams, still have the finances to do so. Scary times for all levels of the sport.
There may be lots of spaces in teams in the Premier and Championship if everyone doesnt come back from overseas, or prioritises Poland and Sweden, upon the return of the Sport, which might negate the need for two teams at those clubs who plan to run them...
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49 minutes ago, MattK said:Again, proof that speedway doesn't understand its target market. Why promote speedway to kids? It makes no sense.
It does if you get the kids hooked on it..
McDonalds do a 'reasonable job' of targeting kids so I presume it works!!
The issue UK Speedway has is that kids up to say 11 will go along maybe under suffererence, or maybe they do like it so put some pressure on parents to take them..
However post 11, and on into the teens, why would you want to go somewhere your Dad and Granddad goes for a night out?
Dominoes and Crib in the interval maybe?
Since I would say 2000, there are now more people living who 'used to go to Speedway' than currently do attend..
Therefore targeting their return has to be easier than getting someone who hasn't a clue about the sport surely?
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2 hours ago, falcace said:Exactly the problem. Speedway is trying to please a dwindling hardcore. Trying to please 70% of 400 people then next year trying to please 70% of 350 people is no way to run a sustainable business.
If speedway is to have any successful future, it needs to consult with and tailor its product for those people it is not attracting to the stadium, not the shrinking hardcore it is.
Do you think cricket came up with Twenty20 by consulting with the few hundred who bother with county cricket?
Not sure where the standing around comes from. Think of it as a festival, you pick the bands you want to see, those you don't and if you want to after you have seen what you want to see then go home. No one's forcing anyone to stand around?!
The starting point has got to be the target market. Who does speedway want to appeal to? And then create the experience from there. That's why Twenty20 is a success. That's why UFC is a success. It's also why horse racing has thrived..it has become a much more family friendly experience.
That's why I put forward the multi sport weekend festival model, to appeal to the young family market. It's far from a personal wishlist of activities, because its not about me and its not about you either. It's about getting the sport a new and bigger audience to give it a fighting chance of survival.
"I wont be watching this pyjama cricket" was an often noted quote from 'the dinosaurs' who liked to watch the dying County 3 and 4 day game, with around 50 or so other die hards every day, in a 20000 seater stadium..
And also 20/20 over here doesnt market itself or pay out the same cash against the mega league of the IPL, or even the Aussie Big Bash..
Instead it uses a "good standard" of player, (mainly UK lads), paying less, but getting healthy attendances..
The same way that British Superbikes use a lower level of rider (again, based on UK lads in the main) than the WSB, yet still get very healthy crowds..
Both know that when the "big boys" come knocking for their best talent they will lose them to the higher standard. However they have a pro active plan to bring in replacements as they know it will be inevitable..
What they dont do is let their business plan be impacted by other competitions in the same sport..
Needs a complete re think and refresh British Speedway..
Get a brand identity, get a clear business plan, and then build a fit for purpose operating model based on its affordability and resource capability..
And then market the s**t out of it!!!
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9 hours ago, cityrebel said:Didn't king's Lynn recently run a similar two day event and no one turned up.
Probably running it late winter with 'anyone who would ride' didnt help?
Running something similar over the August BH weekend, after loads of advertising to fans during the Speedway season, with some recognised riders riding, would get decent crowds I would think..
If space allows, then have camping facilities, music, bar, bbq etc...
Like the old Grasstrack weekends for the big events..
Often wondered if letting track licences get bought for certain dates by 'anyone' would be a possible successful venture?
One off big events ran by people who truly know how to promote any event..
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Slough Speedway have just opened their new kiosk ready for when the season starts. .
It's the future...
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2 minutes ago, RobMcCaffery said:Yes, really. They can have this conversation while enjoying their overpriced pints "I pay £17 to get in here and half the night's racing I wouldn't watch for free. How long before the next speedway? Oh, time to go home I think".
It's rather like interrupting a football match to play rugby.
Whilst team speedway all over the UK attracts a few hundred 50, 60 and 70 something year olds rattling around in a four fifths empty stadium...
Its working so well it's probably best we just carry on doing the same thing....
Over and over and over and over again..
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1 hour ago, iris123 said:I agree with part of that. I went to a joint speedway/MotoX event and the MotoX jumps were far more spectacular and much better presented than the speedway. Smolinski really ripped into the speedway presentation and said it was old fashioned compared to the spectacular jumps. And I would go to another Night f the Jumps or whatever it is. The things is though, it is a one-off. I wouldn't pay that sort of money weekly nor monthly, and it is I would think repeptetive anyway
As it goes, after not going to a meeting last season (Not because I didn't want to mind, it was more a clash with something else or when I had the time the weather wasn't up to much. And I have enough experience of travelling miles only for a meeting to be called off or pushed through with no actual racing because of the conditions, and won't pay out for that) I was actually looking forward to this season. And now it looks like it will hardly get going
I think Speedway (in this country) needs to get itself an identity..
Every single meeting should be a stand alone event, and promoted as such...
There is too much Speedway that just unfortunately, blandly 'goes through the motions'..
The Supercross event I attended had loads of off track add ons to keep the fans engaged, many of which had minimal costs involved, yet targeted the younger element of the fanbase (which in turn pester the parents!)..
Fan zones, meet and greets, up to date music, lights, colour, noise, an enthusiastic mike man, making personalities of the riders etc etc all can be replicated at a Speedway meeting..
The evening should be geared up with one simple objective. .
And that's to get at least the same amount of people to go again...
And if that gets delivered regularly, the next stage is to grow the attendance organically through the show it puts on...
It can't deliver a 'team sport' in its purest form in the UK so, given the hiatus, maybe it's time to sell the 'spectacle' instead. A spectacle that can reach levels very few stadium sports can match. .
High octane, adreneline fuelled action with an off track dynamic aimed at a demographic (at least) 20 years lower than the current average of regular follower..
However, instead of asking "How will we wow the punters tonight?" and put together an overall "great nights entertainment package at the Speedway" for its fans, it does often appear that some promoters spend more time, energy and emotion checking, double checking and treble checking whether the oppositions "guest" is eligible to ride against them or not....
All in the name of trying to win a match that often only a few hundred actually care enough about to bother attending..
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18 minutes ago, MattK said:I agree that the presentation of your average speedway meeting is something out of the 1970s.
However, would you go and see supercross every week? That's the fundamental problem club promoters face. Putting on a one-off meeting and charging £45+ a ticket is perfectly possible - the GP does it every year. I don't see how that translates into 20 meetings per season though.
Maybe less really is more?
Putting in loads of second and third rate contrived team speedway undersells the sport's overall potential massively, so put on less meetings but 'bigger events'?
Anything put out that's sub standard is pretty much 'brand damaging' yet it sometimes appears that "any Speedway is better than no Speedway" is the mantra followed..
Hence we applaud (quite rightly) people like Lee Kilby and Barry Bishop, who take a pro active approach to 'a night at the Speedway' and understand that it's the attention to detail that makes the overall entertainment package, not just the racing. .
Maybe some good will come out of a reduced season by clubs trying something different to see if it works..
The 'same old, same old' certainly wasn't working looking at the evidence of the past 25 years or so, so why carry on with doing the same thing?
It's possibly a real opportunity to reinvent itself and start again. .
Fresh ideas, fresh start. .
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1 hour ago, MattK said:It is very much down to marketing, but I don't think marketing a series of individual meetings is any easier than marketing a team-base league. In fact, I think trying to market the Swindon Robins to people who primarily live in Swindon is a much easier sell than a individual meeting full of riders nobody has heard of.
I attended a three hour indoor supercross event at the Manchester Arena a couple of years ago that got a 7000 full house at £45 for me and £15 for my then 14 year old lad..
Didn't have a clue who any of the riders were, (and still dont)..
Lots of local marketing, using billboards, flyers given out in the very busy city centre by 'quite attractive' young ladies, riders doing wheelies in the city centre in front of the local TV cameras and newspapers, and a three minute interview on the local news programme explaining what was on offer..
Paid £60, plus won a T shirt fired from an air gun into the crowd, my lad got a free poster signed by 'whoever', I spent a bomb on Coke and Hot Dogs, plus I spent £5 on texting my name to a number to try (unsuccessfully) to win a kids MX bike suspended from the ceiling.
Me and about 3500 other Dad's looking at the amount of mobile phones that were taken out when the competition was announced.
(The bike was worth around £1500 so they made a hell of pile of cash on this competiton)..
Loads of merchandise stalls for the riders to sell their own gear and an autograph/selfie area where riders signed free posters of themselves...
Loads of interviews of riders between racers to get an insight into their personality, with the local lads being the prime interviewees to illicit some local partisanship from us fans who didn't know them from Adam. Meaning we watched out for them more closely..
Three hours of noise, music, lights, colour, racing and a mike man who kept the whole thing moving at a break neck pace which befits a high octane, adreneline fuelled sport, and your attention never wavered...
Do all that for a Saturday night at a Speedway meeting and you may just have a success on your hands...
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10 minutes ago, MattK said:No, I don't think they would. That's a play-off finals size crowd, but without any prestige or club loyalty in the mix.
I honestly don't think tinkering with the format or race nights will make a material difference. The problem is promotion or lack thereof. I can walk around Swindon and not see a single indication of the speedway season about to start, even though Swindon's first meeting was theoretically last week. I can walk around Swindon's largest employers and not see a single sign that a speedway team exists in the town.
People aren't going to magically appear about of thin air at the gates.
It is very much down to marketing though isnt it?
Speedway needs to think much bigger when it comes to selling itself.
If an individual event had a decent prize fund then I am sure interest would be stirred in the casual follower.
Maybe clubs could do a few 'indys' if the leagues cannot get finished and use sponsors cash to put on a 'biggie or two' which would remind the casual fans the place still exists and give the club a chance to see if certain race nights (with something tangible to ride for) do increase their revenue..
Almost a free hit for them if no team racing to try something different I would think..
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56 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:Thinking of King's Lynn - I believe that they could pull 2.000 on a Saturday night with the right kind of team format and visiting team variety to make the proposed scheme viable. Providing that the quality of racing on track makes it a VFM night out for the supporters. Riders have a major part to play in making the racing worth watching and rebuilding the sport in 2021.
2000 punters at 18 quid in would gross £36,000. Take out the vat and your still looking at the thick edge of nearly 29 grand..
And that doesnt include car park and bar take for those who own the premises, nor programme sales..
Once a week, using 12 lads of Championship Heat Leader and above standard with a minimum £1000 to ride and around £2500 to the winner of the meeting surely must be a possibility?
As an example...
Wolves Monday, Poole Wednesday, Swindon Thursday, Belle Vue Friday, Kings Lynn Saturday. Peterborough Sunday..
Tuesday can be left for Sweden and the riders to be used at weekend wont be needed in Poland..
Plenty of racing for the riders as there are obviously many more tracks to do the same, for all levels of riders..
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1 hour ago, FAST GATER said:As I have said we got out when it all went silly ,from my own point of view the Street conversion was the start of the real problems from then on costs went through the roof .The only real mod we had to the engines before that was what they called a Piper Conversion ( having a larger than standard exhaust valve) .
It is a strange buisness plan isn't it?
With the ultimate result of course being that not many people actually really care who wins a Speedway title in Britain, as a) the sports following is very small, and b) given the often contrived way the comps are ran there is very little kudos in 'winning'..
Yet promoters, in their own bubble, seem to take things very seriously and expect riders to have the best kit available to help their teams win the leagues...
Kit that costs many thousands of pounds...
Which means many more thousands of pounds need to be paid to the riders to pay for the kit and then maintain it...
Kit they all buy from pretty much the same place, and then buy upgraded parts from pretty much the same places, and get their bikes tuned often using the same tuners..
Meaning very little advantage for anyone as they are mostly doing exactly the same thing..
Hundreds of thousands of pounds each paid out by riders and promoters..
With all effectively running to stand still...
All to win something hardly anyone gets excited about, and hardly anyone outside the sport will even notice..
A true race to the bottom isn't it?
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6 minutes ago, FAST GATER said:In the 70's they were all mainly semi pro except for the likes of Mauger ,Olsen and the mighty Mich and that was said to be the heyday's of the sport .
Many riders were more than happy to ride Speedway whilst holding down another job..
Riders could earn a weeks money (and even more) from their other job in just one night of Speedway..
Ride for just four nights and you had the same as your months salary from your other job, and many rode four or five nights a week..
But then again, back then, not many spent fortunes on engine tuming, the latest carbs, clutches, etc etc etc, like so many seem to do now for their ever growing stable of bikes that they use in various countries...
The costs seem to have grown year on year whilst the income to pay the riders to pay these costs has eroded away almost annually...
Higher salary costs to help riders cover their costs, often results in admission cost increases which then means less fans attending, which then results in more admission cost increases to cover the shortfall, which then results in less fans attending, and on and on it goes..
The tipping point can't be far away,
(If it hasn't already happened)..
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FWIW (not much), here is my take..
If any team racing takes place I would suggest it will be littered with guests as so many riders either won't come back as it won't be worthwhile, or Poland and Sweden will be wanting the same riders and paying more, or both leagues will want the same riders on the same night as they cram fixtures in..
Therefore, maybe it's best to scrap the team aspect this season altogether and see if running well promoted (and sponsored) individual events, on the nights each club would like to run, could be a money maker?
Riders will want to race as much as they can in a very short space of time so maybe giving the majority of them all seven nights a week to earn their corn could work?
A format such as this maybe could work?
12 riders, 3 groups of four, four races per group so all have a start position from every gate.
Winner of each group goes to the final, runners up of the three groups and highest scoring third place rider go into a race off.
Four play off races later the finalists are known...
A four race final and that's 20 heats of Speedway. (Maybe more if run offs are needed for the best third place rider, play off, and any ties in the Final..
Minimum £1000 a rider meaning the 'fourths' earn £3k, £1200 for the two third place riders meaning £2400, the two 'seconds' who failed to reach the final, and the top scoring third place rider earn £1400 meaning £4200, and the finalists earning £1600, £1800, £2000 and £2500,
A total of £17500, (is that similar to what clubs pay out now for the home and away costs from their one home meeting for their seven rders?).
Could the Premiership clubs get 2000 or so on their best night? Paying circa £18 to watch 12 riders Premiership Heat Leader/Second string level or Championship heat leader standard? If so they would make a fair few quid. .
Championship clubs might need to reduce the prize fund accordingly to suit their income (and bring in a lower level of rider), but each track using 12 riders would mean several of them being able to ride four of five times a week (and maybe more)..
Should we get say a 10 week season then 40 or 50 or so meetings for some of the riders would help them offset some of their season losses I would think. .
And maybe racing on nights that the clubs feel can bring in most fans might prove to be a pointer for the future..?
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1 hour ago, Falcon1983 said:I think it's time british speedway in a sense looked after it's own clubs, it's own riders and it's own fans. No restrictions on when you can run your speedway night, a less is more club offering on the league front with more focus on the individual element for British Riders and Championship.
There is no better time than now really to act once this is all over, it's likely a few teams will be lost but with limited riders to go around and the necessity really to run more on the days thay benefit your business in terms of crowd size etc. Then less clubs isn't a bad thing until more young british or commonwealth riders are coming through the system
Spot on....
The operating model simply doesn't work, as has been proved by the sports' ever diminishing following whilst it has stubbornly been continually followed, so what a gilt edged opportunity to re look at every facet of the way the sport is ran in the UK and deliver something better..
Less could really be more for British Speedway..
Less meetings maybe, but if everyone of them were credible, worth winning and tangibly mean something, then what a leap forward it could be..
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Looking at the UK Gov guidelines the conundrum for me will be whether the riders are self employed or not..
I suppose that will flush out the asset system once and for all maybe?
With so many riders riding overseas I cant see their UK earnings being enough to cover them, even if they are regarded as employees and the clubs claim the Gov assistance to pay 80% of their salary..
(Another question will be thrown out as salaries are often earned in many instances on performance rather than a basic so maybe difficult to calculate?)..
Are Poland and Swedens Govts doing the same and protecting a large amount of salaries??
You would think that for many riders it would be vital for them to do so?
That is obviously if they are regarded as 'employees' and not 'self employed'
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26 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said:Housing developers would probably pick up the tracks people own and I guess the ones they rent too as stocks and dog racing will be in the same boat.
Just hope enough survive to have some form of speedway available
For me that's the biggest threat..
if you own a stadium and your overall business is potentially going to the wall, or the stock market crashing has impacted you severely, then selling off the place for housing would be the 'quick cash fix' you may need...
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The BV v Wolves matches of the early nineties were great...
Big crowds and fantastic racing...
Mark and the Woflcry gang used to stand next to us and the verbal (mostly good natured
) banter between the two sets fans was always a huge part of the evening...
RIP Mark..
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12 hours ago, arnieg said:But who would they be watching?
Let's assume that Poland will be staging speedway every weekend in an effort to squeeze in as many meetings as possible. So Kurtz, Lidsey and possibly Kildemand and Bewley will want to be in Poland
Didn't Leicester increase their fan base by dropping down and losing Jason Doyle?
They did it by simply riding on a Saturday rather than a Monday or a Wednesday or a Thursday as it was then...
People's leisure time is traditionally weekend, therefore run when most people can watch you..
Let's be honest who cares who wins most speedway meetings given the way many teams end up as the season goes by as made up adhoc septets, so just run it by selling the entertainment you can get by watching four riders of similar skills racing against each other on nights most punters can get there...
I would suggest the Aces for example would get 400 more at least on a Saturday to watch BV v Wolves with three or four guests on show than two full teams on a Thursday night...
Each club will have its traditional 'best night' to run..
So just run then..
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1 hour ago, keepturningleft said:Sadly, they wouldn't.
Belle Vue sees racing like this (and much better than this), every week on the best track in the UK but the crowds are not returning to the terraces in any significant numbers.
Suggest there would be significantly more watching at the NSS if they ran at weekends...
400 to 500 a week more I would think when you compare what crowds they were getting on the odd Fridays and Saturdays that they ran on in their first year..
400 extra at 20 times a season would be an extra 8000 punters...
At circa £20 a go that's £160k more in the coffers...
400 punters per week extra is, in the grand scheme of things, hardly any number, yet it would make a world of difference to some clubs..
Maybe a few weekends could be incorporated into any restructured fixture list?
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Will British Speedway Survive ?
in SGB Premiership Speedway League
Posted
Nothing to stop the UK riding every night it wants I would say if others do the same..
Should Poland and Sweden want to cram as many meetings in as they can, you would think that the riders who ride in either (or both) leagues, and ride over here, would want to maximise their income and go where the money is best..
That would give plenty of UK riders lots or meetings over here and may prove a pointer towards a more 'going it alone' plan in the future..