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Sidney the robin

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Posts posted by Sidney the robin

  2. Posted

    For me i don't don't see it as an issue at all, he is in control of his career and all his fellow British riders understand that.Myself he puts his shift in for England and can't wait to see him ride the new Belle Vue.Also for him to at whatever stage go on and be a three time World Champion a rider for all young Brits Brennan,Bickley (ect) to aspire to be.

    • Like 1

  3. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    As a historian, your post got me thinking about even further back, Sidney, to the 1950s and 60s.

    So how about this for a Top 10 British from the 1950s: Peter Craven. Freddie Williams, Split Waterman, Brian Crutcher. Ken McKinlay. Arthur Forrest. Alan Hunt. Tommy Price. Cyril Roger. Eric Williams.

     

    1960s: Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Peter Craven, Mike Broadbank(s), Eric Boocock, Ron How, David Younghusband, Martin Ashby, Trevor Hedge, Norman Hunter ?

    That 50s group of riders look really special "Norbold" , looking at that group in the 60s the league structure changed when was it 1965.Did a lot of those riders have to really improve, from 65 onwards to get to that level i include Ray Wilson from 68 onwards in that as well.Did Ray have to comeback from a serious leg break? great rider Ray one of my favourites did hurt a bit when he beat Crash in 75 though.😀

  5. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    When you look at that abundance of top British names, Sidney, all riding at the same time, it makes you weep at the "talent" we have these days!

    Those days are well gone but on Monday i know it was a different level we are talking about but i really enjoyed the British Final.

    Kennett often gets forgotten when talking about the past, thinking about it for me he is the best rider i ever see ride Eastbourne.When i think of the period 1970 /80 we had British talent in abundance so much talent.Will get shot down maybe but my British top ten from 1970/80 ( no order) are Lee,Collins,Louis,Simmons,Ray Wilson,Ashby,Betts,E.Boocock, N.Boocock,Jessup.( Kennett would be in my top 20 easily and there is a good case for him to be in a top 10 ( ie) he achieved more on the world scene than Ashby,E.Boocock,Betts.

    oops forgot Carter he would be in a top ten.

  6. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    An enjoyable meeting. The track was slick and the outside line just wasn't working but still some close racing with some good races. Wolves didn't give up, Lindgren looked fast in his first couple of races and was worth more than he scored, Thorssell battled hard all night and Kylmakorpi had his moments. I was surprised at how poor Howarth was, he was the best EDR at the start of the season.

     

    For the Aces a good solid performance. Fricke was superb, Cook rode well and it was a shame having passed Lindgren that he made a mistake coming off the last bend that let him through for the win. Nicholls seemed unlucky to be excluded in heat 6, he certainly got a nudge from Lindgren going into the first bend, Steve Worrall acquitted himself well in a heat leader role, refusing to be intimidated by Lindgren who was in close contention in the rerun of heat 6. Jacobs also did really well and makes those calling for his head in the earlier part of the season look foolish.

     

    It's good to see the fear coming from some of Ford's disciples. :lol:

     

     

     

     

     

    Not too sure about that, no Fricke and a question mark over Bomber's current form. Although I still think we shall win.

     

    Really pleased for young Jacobs he seems to have turned the corner a good little rider in there somewhere.When i see him ride at the Abbey he was on the pace but lacked sharpness also i don't think he has the best aquipment .MORT must be happy with what he is contributing now though,i want all the young Brits to improve even young Clegg not always in the points but has improved as a rider.

  7. Posted

    Kennett often gets forgotten when talking about the past, thinking about it for me he is the best rider i ever see ride Eastbourne.When i think of the period 1970 /80 we had British talent in abundance so much talent.Will get shot down maybe but my British top ten from 1970/80 ( no order) are Lee,Collins,Louis,Simmons,Ray Wilson,Ashby,Betts,E.Boocock, N.Boocock,Jessup.( Kennett would be in my top 20 easily and there is a good case for him to be in a top 10 ( ie) he achieved more on the world scene than Ashby,E.Boocock,Betts.

    • Like 2

  8. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    Agreed.I know you saw Martin Ashby more than me Sid,but he was one of my favourite opposition riders.In fact he rode quite a bit for the Dons,so was almost one of our own.Never as good as the fantastic Peter Collins,but one of those riders the sport need

    He guested alot for the late great Tommy Jansson Ashby was a real star in my eyes Briggs Ashby Crump Adams the mainstay of Swindon for the last 50 years.As a visiting rider to the Abbey although not the best and i was not a fan of his Gordon Kennett had a great record there.

  11. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    High praise that Norbold ,Johnston i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding style.

    There were some truly great Belle Vue riders before the War. In a five year run from 1934-1938, they never had less than three riders in the top 10 averages.

    1934: Eric Langton (2nd), Bill Kitchen (7th), Joe Abbott (9th)

    1935: Max Grosskreutz (4th), Bill Kitchen (5th), Eric langton (6th)

    1936: Max Grosskreutz (2nd), Eric Langton (6th), Joe Abbott (7th), Bill Kitchen (8th)

    1937: Eric Langton (3rd), Bill Kitchen (5th), Joe Abbott (7th)

    1938: Bill Kitchen (5th), Frank Varey (7th), Eric Langton (10th)

     

    No other team achieved that record even once during that period!I don't think I can really answer that as I have only ever been to Belle Vue once (shame!), so can't really say how Ron Johnston and Chris Morton might have compared.

    The reason I mentioned Ron Johnston though comes back again to my New Cross experience. The first time I saw Belle Vue there, Ron Johnston scored an 18 point maximum compared to Peter Craven's 13. He then outscored Craven every time I saw them both at New Cross. In addition, when I wrote my book, "Speedway's Classic Meetings", I featured the Norwich v. Belle Vue Britannia Shield Final 2nd Leg held at Norwich in 1957. Once again it was Johnston who proved the match winner for Belle Vue, scoring a 15 point maximum to Craven's 13. This included Johnston beating Ove Fundin on Fundin's own track of course, while Craven lost to him (and Aub Lawson).

    In addition to that, as OveFundinFan says, he came 5th in the World Final in my first year of speedway.

     

    So right from the beginning, I have had a very favourable impression of Ron Johnston as an outstanding rider - even better than Peter Craven in the matches I personally witnessed or studied, so I was just interested really in a Belle Vue fan's view of him.

    High praise that Norbold ,Johnston i knew was very good indeed but for you to say that real high praise.Sjosten is he a man who sometimes gets forgotten how highly did you rate him ".Norbold" ?.I never see him ride Hyde Rd but see quite a lot of him really exciting i think he was good anough to be a world champion awesome riding style.

  12. Posted

    Bates reward was the final taking place on his own track. He had a huge advantage over the other riders in that respect. Had the final had taken place at a neutral track and he had still won it, then I could understand the argument.

    If the final had taken place at Poole and Ellis had won it, would you be saying Ellis should get the place on merit, as he won the title. If it had taken place at Poole Bates would not have got more than a handful of points at best. He is usually tailed off at the back. He scored 5 from six rides on his last visit. And before that 3 from 4.

    For me i have Bates in front of Ellis i like both,i know Bates did not score many in the BF but he has improved his heat one effort was very good.Also i believe he is better bet at Belle Vue than Ellis more of a racer all about opinions i suppose.

  14. Posted

    Are you watching the same Lambert as I am, the one that is putting in good scores in PL or EL alike. He is good enough to be in the team proper both for the now, where he will gain experience and for the future.

    Tai and Lambert are my main picks for the next five years, Lambert is a real talent Cook also would be in my team the other place up for grabs for me.
    • Like 1

  16. Posted

    In my era (80s) I'd go Carter gundersen Morton. Nielsen probably in there somewhere, but wouldn't consider him a Hyde Rd specialist, just awesome everywhere once he hit his peak!

    Gundersen won two blrc, was in a run off for another, equal track record holder, and was generally dominant there in the league.

    Maybe not top 6 ever, but cetaonly close - I'm guessing other aces fans may debate whether he or Carter was the best visiting rider in the 80s.

    Carter top of the eighties,(not in the NLRC) when Mort mugged him, Ivan,Ole,PC with Mort close were the best i see at Hyde Rd Nielsen, Gundo close after.

  18. Posted

    If they have had the rain we have just had in Southern Swindon, where you would have needed a canoe to travel along the road, and rain forecast from 10am till 10pm tomorrow, there is very little chance of this meeting being on.

     

    Add to that Rosco getting pi##ed while celebrating Wales beating England at footy in the afternoon.

     

    Off by 1 o'clock "A ORLOV hope it is announced early,watching Wales at least draw with England forecast tomorrow looks horrendous.

  19. Posted

    In contradiction of most of what's been said on previous pages, let it be known that Berwick Speedway announced some time ago that every living ex-Bandit, even if they only raced one official match, can get a lifetime free pass to meetings at Shielfield Park.

     

    All they need to do is contact the promotion -- at club@berwickbandits.co -- and give their name and current address. Their lifetime free pass is mailed out the next day.

     

    "If a guy has risked his life while entertaining our public at any time over the past 49 years, that's good enough for us" was the club's statement when the list of over 250 living ex-Bandits was published.

     

    So please don't include the Berwick promotion in any criticism being levelled at clubs not honouring past heroes.

    Agree the past is important in my eyes that is how you judge success at Swindon Broady,Crash,Dukey and others come regular brilliant stuff.

  20. Posted

    age isn't always a factor. I admit I don't know Jason doyles age, but he progressed late on, hancock is an exception!

    Doyle had some really nasty injuries and i don't think when he was on the up really liked Poole's track.PUK another one really learned his trade took a few years to get there, failed originally in the GPS got there in the end.Cook has something when i first see him was not overly impressed but he has grown on me when at it he is mighty quick.

  21. Posted

    Cook is already 29. Heading towards the end of his career. He came to the sport far too late. No point saying Hancock is still going because the guys a freak. Most riders careers stop rising around 30. Cook is more or less at his best now.

    Total nonsense John Louis /Jem Doncaster were late starters they did OK.Cook not quite at there level of course but age has nothing to do with it he is dedicated and when on it mighty quick remember Poole Wimbourne Rd last year.? Steve some of your comments are baffling lately, forget Poole no bias no agenda against another club give an impartial view.
    • Like 1

  22. Posted

    Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us.

    All very subjective I suppose.

    Craven i would imagine would of loved West Ham,Craven/Briggs both have to be in the best five riders to ever ride Hyde Rd.

  23. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    Some points to consider...

     

    * Current day promoters are not missing out by issuing a free pass to an ex-rider, because 99% wouldn't go anyway. Many cannot afford to do so.

     

    * How do you discriminate by regarding one ex-rider as a 'legend' and another as an also-ran who simply made up the numbers? For example, you could argue Ian Turner gave as much to Lynn, in terms of effort and loyalty, as Bettsy - and was probably more exciting to watch. Are you deemed a legend for the points you scored or the number of years/matches you rode? Terry Stone rode for Rayleigh throughout their 1968-73 BL2 era, but you'd never bracket him as a star, yet it's inconceivable that he would be denied a general lifetime BSPA pass, while, say, Geoff Maloney gets one for being a No.1 or 'legend'. And think what a great ambassador Terry S has been for Rayleigh - and speedway in general - in the past couple of decades as he's toured the country promoting the 'Men in Black' and other such organisations that all help to preserve speedway history.

     

    * Freeloaders come in many guises. At least ex-riders have stuck their neck on the line for the clubs they have ridden for, unlike former rakers, pushers, press men, tea ladies, etc, etc.

     

    * Because many riders, like Terry Stone, rode for tracks that are now defunct, our proposal to the BSPA would be for them to issue an Ex-Riders Life-time Pass that will admit that person to ALL existing EL, PL & NL tracks.

     

    * Some promoters look after and respect their clubs' ex-riders much better than others. It's nonsense to suggest a promoter should only invite back and offer free entry to those who rode on his watch. Terry Russell never employed Mike Broadbank, Martin Ashby, Ian Williams, Barry Duke and all the other ex-Robins who regularly enjoy taking their place in the Legends Lounge at Blunsdon, but he knows what these guys have done for Swindon many years before he got involved there. In fact, until his death, Freddie Williams (Ian's brother) was also a regular there, because he lived reasonably near by and enjoyed visiting the track. TR wasn't going to make a former double world champion pay at the turnstiles. It's all about RESPECT.

     

    * The pass should be non-transferrable and include a passport photo of the holder, which must be produced upon entry to the stadium. However, we would not advocate entry to the pits - as others have said, they are already overcrowded, so admittance to the pits area would be at the promoter's discretion.

     

    * If the BSPA cannot, for whatever reason, administer an ex-rider's application for a pass (let's face it, they have many more important things they should be doing), then we know for a fact that the World Speedway Riders' Association would be more than happy to take on that task and manage the process on an ongoing basis, as more and more ex-riders heard about the free pass scheme.

     

    Now consider the general potential positives from a promoters' perspective by admitting ex-riders free...

     

    1. They would help to fill empty seats and large swathes of empty terraces, which are a bad advert for the sport, especially when meetings are televised and crowds naturally reduce.

     

    2. In many cases, the ex-rider will attend with a PAYING companion - wife, brother, mate, etc, who may in some cases have to drive them to the speedway - so there is the potential for INCREASED REVENUE at the turnstiles and, in the case of the few stadia owned by the promoter, at the bar and catering outlets.

     

    3. Most ex-riders are very happy to engage with supporters, chatting about the 'olden days', with helps to enhance the fans' evening. Often it will be the only thing they take from a drawn-out and/or boring meeting. Lost count of the number of times I've heard a fan say: "The meeting was rubbish but I really enjoyed meeting and chatting to.... pity the riders of today don't have time or inclination to talk to us like the old boys do."

     

    4. Goodwill. The club/promoter is seen to be giving something back to those who previously represented the club and, in most cases, shed blood for it.

     

    5. As well as talking to fans face to face, these approachable guys would surely be happy to be interviewed during one of many long lulls between races, to give their take on what they're seeing from a position of some experience, or perform a simple task like drawing the raffle. Again, this would enhance the fans' experience.

     

    6. Ex-riders can help spread the word. If he enjoys a night out, chances are he is more likely to tell his circle of friends and hopefully younger relatives that a night out at the speedway is no bad thing. Freeze them out and the reverse happens.

     

    7. A clued-up, media-savvy promoter would occasionally use one or two ex-riders in a PR capacity, to help promote his track, by posing with current riders and attending important events such as sponsorship launches. After all, it's not youngsters who read local papers (can they read?!) or tune into local radio - it's mainly people who attend speedway today and, more importantly, THOSE WHO STOPPED GOING. Maybe a pic of an old favourite from the 60s/70s/80s/90s in the local rag, or a radio interview, would rekindle interest and entice lapsed supporters into give it another go...

     

    Promoters and existing fans bang on about 'attracting youngsters to speedway.. they are the future', but the first priority should be to keep existing fans happy (or happier) and win back the support of those who have stopped going for whatever reason.

     

    Most football clubs are very good at using former stars as ambassadors and speedway is negligent in this respect. Think how Man Utd have tapped into Bobby Charlton's fame and popularity over many years since he retired.

     

    Personally speaking, my father used to play for Leyton Orient in the old first division in the early 60s and spent six years there between 1959-65. For the past 20 years, despite several changes of ownership, he has always been warmly welcomed back any time - as have all of his of his playing colleagues. In fact, we have continued to receive TWO COMPLIMENTARY tickets - arranged through the supporters club - to every home game for many years. League Two Orient only attract about 5-6,000 fans to a stadium that holds 9,000, so they aren't giving us free seats that would otherwise have been taken up by paying customers (we do pay for cup tie tickets, because money has to be accounted to the FA & Football League).

     

    And we give the LOSC plenty back by what we spend on real ale in their bar after every game (after watching that dross, you need to numb the pain!)

     

    The serious point is, Dad still has Orient in his heart, he talks to people he meets in the area about the club and at every game without fail he is stopped by at least one or two fans wanting to chat about his goal against Man United in '62, or just to get his view on the team or players of today. So Orient might be a crap team, but they know how to look after and respect their past players, and speedway could learn from this example.

     

    Of course, at Retro Speedway, we are biased towards the old-timers . . . but someone's got to stick up for them.

    Great post the only gripe maybe was Tiddler Turner he was an exciting rider a good one to but Bettsy was great value wasn't he.?😀

  24. Posted · Edited by Sidney the robin

    A quick glance through my records indicates that between 1956 and 1963 Peter Craven and Ove Fundin met in 49 races at Hyde Road, with Peter ahead 31-18.

    1956 team matches Craven 0 Fundin 2

    1957 Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

    1958 team Craven 3 Fundin 0, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 0

    1959 team Craven 0 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 2 Fundin 1

    1960 team Craven 1 Fundin 4

    1961 team Craven 3 Fundin 1, Golden Helmet Craven 0 Fundin 2, second half races Craven 3 Fundin 0

    1962 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 3 Fundin 2

    1963 team Craven 3 Fundin 2, Golden Helmet Craven 4 Fundin 0, second half Craven 2 Fundin 1

     

    Not including the second half races, some of which were Gold Cup qualifiers, the score was Craven 26 Fundin 17.

    Thanks BL great stuff up until his death the original PC was in front was aged only 29 how many titles could he have won who knows!😀

  25. Posted

    It does indeed show how closely matched the top group of riders were. 1963 results for the World Final, Internationale and Gold Cup only show slight surprises (6 riders competed in all three meetings, but not all of them took part in The Laurels that year). Totals were Bjorn Knutson 38, Ove Fundin 37, Barry Briggs 36, Sverre Harrfeldt 34, Nigel Boocock 30, Peter Craven 26.

     

    If I had ranked British-based riders over the period 1961 to 1963 from memory, and taking into account all meetings rather than just looking at statistics from some of the big individual meetings, I would have had a top five of 1. Ove Fundin, 2. Barry Briggs, 3. Ronnie Moore, 4. Bjorn Knutson, 5. Peter Craven.

    What a top five BL all legends, BL have you any idea roughly what Craven's Hyde Rd record was against Fundin ? my uncle told me he always held his own there.I always imagined Ove to be a white liner tough as old boots ( only see him ride twice) have pictures of Craven leading him there one in the Helmet i think.?
    • Like 1
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