BWitcher 12,453 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) We will have to agree to disagree then. I'd love to post pictures as evidence...but it seems this forum doesn't allow you to do this...even links to pictures? But look at any picture of riders racing now...and it is 'just too busy' as CH958 implied... look at pictures of racing from the 70's and 80's where Race jackets were simple and defined and not blocked out by handlebar covers...and it was very easy to pick out who was riding for who. There isn't anything to disagree with. You're wrong. Period. You're still wittering on about a race jacket, something which covers their chest. The detail of which you barely see when riders are racing some distance from you, and more often than not you are seeing the side or back of them so the detail on the racejacket is irrelevant anyway. The very fact you still are talking about 'picking out' shows how wrong you are... There is no picking out involved when team suits are used. It's immediately apparent which team is which no matter where they are on the track, no matter what angle you are looking from. You don't have to wait till you 'pick' out a logo on their chest! Photos won't prove a thing, a nice still image when you can 'pick out' the race jacket. Speedway riders aren't nice and still, nor are they zoomed in on when you are looking from the terraces. If you want to go there with photos though, it will only harm your cause. Scenario.. photo of four riders two in the lead where you could 'pick out' their race jackets, two behind obscured, you can only see parts of their legs and their arms. With race jackets obscured you don't know who is on what team (ignoring helmet colors for the moment). With team leathers, you'd still identify them straight away. Simples. Edited April 13, 2016 by BWitcher 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted April 13, 2016 The team I supported (Oxford) appeared regularly in either league (in whatever guise) during the period I use to follow speedway so I had a good incite as regard the then different disciplines. 1972-75 (British League One) 1976-83 (National League) 1984-1992 (British League) 1993-94 (Premier League) 1995-1996 (One combined League) 1997 (Premier League) 1998 -2003 (Elite League) Also the Oxford Cubs occasionally ran in the 'Junior' League....think I got that little lot right? Personally I always preferred the 'upper' league until later when the GP came along and decimated it! However we did have some good seasons in the 'lower' league and the racing was exceptional on occasions. If I chose to go back to speedway (which is unlikely) my chosen league would be the second tier...but with less foreigners! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) There isn't anything to disagree with. You're wrong. Period. You're still wittering on about a race jacket, something which covers their chest. The detail of which you barely see when riders are racing some distance from you, and more often than not you are seeing the side or back of them so the detail on the racejacket is irrelevant anyway. The very fact you still are talking about 'picking out' shows how wrong you are... There is no picking out involved when team suits are used. It's immediately apparent which team is which no matter where they are on the track, no matter what angle you are looking from. You don't have to wait till you 'pick' out a logo on their chest! Photos won't prove a thing, a nice still image when you can 'pick out' the race jacket. Speedway riders aren't nice and still, nor are they zoomed in on when you are looking from the terraces. If you want to go there with photos though, it will only harm your cause. Scenario.. photo of four riders two in the lead where you could 'pick out' their race jackets, two behind obscured, you can only see parts of their legs and their arms. With race jackets obscured you don't know who is on what team (ignoring helmet colors for the moment). With team leathers, you'd still identify them straight away. Simples. Blimey...keep your knickers on... Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You obviously find it easier...Whilst myself and others find it easier to pick riders out, who aren't adorned in lots of sponsors and a multitude of colours. I've watched Speedway since the mid 70's...and since the introduction of more sponsorship on kevlars, often smaller club emblem and bike and handlebar covers adorned with sponsorship and colour, it has for many I know, been harder to follow a race. So I'm afraid you are wrong PERIOD...very wrong...as you can't speak for everyone. Some obviously prefer it...but not everyone. I like the way you find a word like 'pick' to back up your argument though. 'Pick' was obviously the wrong term to use...perhaps 'STAND OUT' would have been better. I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Is it like the Masons...do I need some secret handshake to get accepted and allowed to use such features? The options are there...but they won't work for me. A quick question...you don't own the company that supplies kevlars to teams do you? Edit...I tried to add some smilies and emotions...but it won't even let me do that...all very odd. Edited April 13, 2016 by Gresham 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falcon Hammer 576 Posted April 13, 2016 Blimey...keep your knickers on... Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You obviously find it easier...Whilst myself and others find it easier to pick riders out, who aren't adorned in lots of sponsors and a multitude of colours. I've watched Speedway since the mid 70's...and since the introduction of more sponsorship on kevlars, often smaller club emblem and bike and handlebar covers adorned with sponsorship and colour, it has for many I know, been harder to follow a race. So I'm afraid you are wrong PERIOD...very wrong...as you can't speak for everyone. Some obviously prefer it...but not everyone. I like the way you find a word like 'pick' to back up your argument though. 'Pick' was obviously the wrong term to use...perhaps 'STAND OUT' would have been better. I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Is it like the Masons...do I need some secret handshake to get accepted and allowed to use such features? The options are there...but they won't work for me. A quick question...you don't own the company that supplies kevlars to teams do you? Edit...I tried to add some smilies and emotions...but it won't even let me do that...all very odd. WRONG, FACT, PERIOD, END OF 🙂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 WRONG, FACT, PERIOD, END OF God damn you FH...how did you get to use a smillie?...I'm tres jealous. ( Insert laughing happy emotion for effect ) How many fingers are you using in that handshake...I'm obviously doing something wrong ;-) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) Blimey...keep your knickers on... Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You obviously find it easier...Whilst myself and others find it easier to pick riders out, who aren't adorned in lots of sponsors and a multitude of colours. I've watched Speedway since the mid 70's...and since the introduction of more sponsorship on kevlars, often smaller club emblem and bike and handlebar covers adorned with sponsorship and colour, it has for many I know, been harder to follow a race. So I'm afraid you are wrong PERIOD...very wrong...as you can't speak for everyone. Some obviously prefer it...but not everyone. I like the way you find a word like 'pick' to back up your argument though. 'Pick' was obviously the wrong term to use...perhaps 'STAND OUT' would have been better. I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Is it like the Masons...do I need some secret handshake to get accepted and allowed to use such features? The options are there...but they won't work for me. A quick question...you don't own the company that supplies kevlars to teams do you? Edit...I tried to add some smilies and emotions...but it won't even let me do that...all very odd. What a load of waffle. Again, it isn't something to disagree on. There is a childrens section of the forum if you want to go and post fantasies. A race jacket is about 75cm by 75cm.. the logo on it can only be seen when looking at the front of the rider.. something you are rarely doing when watching a speedway race. A team suit is the size of the rider wearing it and can be seen from front, back, side. But you claim the small object that is only viewed from one angle is more visible. I'll have whatever you're smoking/drinking! I suggest you start campaigning that football teams abandon the strips they wear, just go with a logo on their chest, any colour for the rest will do as that is basically what you want for speedway. Edited April 13, 2016 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 What a load of waffle. Again, it isn't something to disagree on. There is a childrens section of the forum if you want to go and post fantasies. A race jacket is about 75cm by 75cm.. the logo on it can only be seen when looking at the front of the rider.. something you are rarely doing when watching a speedway race. A team suit is the size of the rider wearing it and can be seen from front, back, side. But you claim the small object that is only viewed from one angle is more visible. I'll have whatever you're smoking/drinking! I suggest you start campaigning that football teams abandon the strips they wear, just go with a logo on their chest, any colour for the rest will do as that is basically what you want for speedway. There's a children's section...? Fantastic...I bet you're the Headmistress ( although feels more like a Dictatorship )...lead the way ;-) How you can talk for other people, and know how they feel? Almost God like...it's quiet an astonishing quality. God knows ( that'll be you by the way ) how we managed to watch riders race for many years in just black leathers, two different coloured race jackets and really small helmet covers ( I'm not offay with the dimensions, perhaps you can let me know, you seem good at that ). I can't remember any of us saying...'who the hell is leading? I wish we had some flashy team race suits covered in loads of sponsors...that'll do it'. And guess what...you could also see the back of the race jacket...with a big shiny number on it...often in a different colour. Pretty advanced technology I know...but lets not digress here. Next time i'm watching Belle Vue v Swindon I'll think of you ;-) As for the football...I'll remember to tell them to get rid of all the sponsors emblazoned all over their bodies...and damn the away team...how dare they turn up in an away strip of colours not clashing... As for smoking...I don't...but my drink of choice, is a nice bottle of single malt Scotch entitled 'the voice of reason' it has hints of sweetness, subtle undertones of sarcasm and a lingering taste of nuttiness ;-) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
New Science 1,059 Posted April 13, 2016 Speedway, lower league Football, cinema etc, in fact any form of entertainment that was previously seen as a weekly experience faces far more competition now than it ever has. As a global population there are more forms of entertainment available to us all now than there ever has been before. It is now possible for people to watch a game of football from anywhere in the world in their own home rather than attending a speedway meeting, to watch a film that is premiering at the cinema from their own home rather than attend a speedway meeting. The standard of TV show available from streaming services like Netflix or on Sky Atlantic is at a level it has never been before, these are all things people can chose to do rather than attend a speedway meeting. These are the trends speedway has to move with and adapt around and could do more of via better social interaction and a more modern presentation of the sport (team suits alone isn’t enough the entire product needs a more “night out/darts” feel to it IMO, appreciate others will disagree). Consider all of those things and then consider the changing demographic of a typical family relationship now compared to 15/20/30 years ago eg the man of the house having to spend more time with the family than ever before and then you can see why attendances have massively dropped since the 80s but have remained consistently around that drop for nearly 20 years now since 2000s, thus that is the regression to the mean for the sport. It is a sport that attracts bang average/low attendances but does attract an audience and continues to, it is just that the lower crowds are now the norm rather than an irregularity and the sport has “lived” with that for kicking on 10 + years now. I doubt things like FTR, Guests, RR etc are going to massively impact crowds because only about 0.000001% of the population actually care about those things (albeit I appreciate those that do care have a passionate care of the subjects). I think the things that will make it peak within that market will be, quite often dependant on the weather that season (not something that can be controlled but given it is a summer sport it is a massive factor in the direction a season goes) the way it is priced, I think it is overpriced given the other options available and also the balance of sides at the start of the season, eg, I think this season will impact a lot of drifting fans in the EL, although probably not at tracks like Poole, Belle Vue, Swindon, Wolves, Lakeside where it looks like they will have a “good season”. I don’t think you will ever see a massive increase in attendances again but simply sliding scales within the 500/3,000 market dependant where you are in the country and the season the side is having, and given it has now done that for 10 + years I don't see why it would suddenly die out because of that in the short term at least. Oh that old chestnut again,speedways ills are all to blame on today's society that people have so much more to choose from.Well its correct in a fashion, they have plentiful options to watch things that are far more entertaining and far better value for money, If you need a reason why speedway is struggling watch tonight's match on the box, 7.30 start and you have to wait until 9.10 for something to happen.,no wonder we are down to the die hards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,618 Posted April 13, 2016 I think I have seen it all now ..not only do you find that People want no's 1 to replaced by Juniors, I now find out that is easy to pick riders out if they don't wear team colours ....I am amazed what I read on here .it's jaw dropping , 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 I think I have seen it all now ..not only do you find that People want no's 1 to replaced by Juniors, I now find out that is easy to pick riders out if they don't wear team colours ....I am amazed what I read on here .it's jaw dropping , Ahhh...I used to own an Orion back in the day...had those pepper pot alloy wheels...lovely bright shade of red. Used to fly up to Blunsdon in it regularly :-) Unbelievable amount of posts there fella/lass 21,000 +...I'm honoured to have made your jaw drop. Thing is...you've only read part of it...RR wouldn't exist if I had my way....Nor guests... I'd tear up the book and start again with different rules. These team colours are causing a storm...unbelievable isn't it. I find it fascinating that we rode for years...including the glory years...when we were the second highest average attended sport in the uk...and I didn't once hear, ' this is ridiculous, I can't see who is riding for who...it's a bloody blur'. I have however heard the words regularly voiced...'it's like watching a hurricane taking all the washing off the line, and whipping it down the back straight'...or words to that effect ;-) Out of interest...has anyone ever looked at a Clubs or riders sponsor and thought...'bugger, I must go and buy whatever product they are selling'? I know I haven't...apart from in 1978 when Durex sponsored meetings...was all a bit of a giggle back then asking Dad 'What the hell is Durex'? :-) My jaw is dropping to the fact people are getting up in arms about team race suits... Glad I amused you though Orion...as did your avatar...filmed in Bristol if memory serves me right :-) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,618 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) Ahhh...I used to own an Orion back in the day...had those pepper pot alloy wheels...lovely bright shade of red. Used to fly up to Blunsdon in it regularly :-) Unbelievable amount of posts there fella/lass 21,000 +...I'm honoured to have made your jaw drop. Thing is...you've only read part of it...RR wouldn't exist if I had my way....Nor guests... I'd tear up the book and start again with different rules. These team colours are causing a storm...unbelievable isn't it. I find it fascinating that we rode for years...including the glory years...when we were the second highest average attended sport in the uk...and I didn't once hear, ' this is ridiculous, I can't see who is riding for who...it's a bloody blur'. I have however heard the words regularly voiced...'it's like watching a hurricane taking all the washing off the line, and whipping it down the back straight'...or words to that effect ;-) Out of interest...has anyone ever looked at a Clubs or riders sponsor and thought...'bugger, I must go and buy whatever product they are selling'? I know I haven't...apart from in 1978 when Durex sponsored meetings...was all a bit of a giggle back then asking Dad 'What the hell is Durex'? :-) My jaw is dropping to the fact people are getting up in arms about team race suits... Glad I amused you though Orion...as did your avatar...filmed in Bristol if memory serves me right :-) I did read the whole of your posts about no guests and no rr ...speedway clubs would go bust in about 3 weeks ...glad you liked the picture you may have no idea how to run a speedway club but your knowledge of tv detectives is first class Edited April 13, 2016 by orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 I did read the whole of your posts about no guests and no rr ...speedway clubs would go bust in about 3 weeks ...glad you liked the picture you may have no idea how to run a speedway club but your knowledge of tv detectives is first class Indeed they would...and let it happen I say. Lets start again. Boom...Oh hang on...lets not rattle any cages here...don't want to upset the establishment ;-) Fingers in pies...using speedway tracks as a tax loss on other businesses...couldn't give a flying about the future or supporters! Not all...but ho hum...lets all stick our heads in the sand. My knowledge of detective series is rather less then my knowledge of speedway and running a club...but let that not get in the way of facts...or that I really want to go there. However...we can agree on one thing...I think you love Speedway as much as me...maybe more...and we all want the best for it. Some want it to change ( that will include me ) others will be quiet happy to go along with it...because they might know someone in the game. Either way...I do know that some bloke coming on to a forum out of the blue for some time, and giving it all, will really piss some people off. ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,961 Posted April 13, 2016 Why 7 riders? It's an arbitrary figure. It's not really arbitrary. 7 riders means that heats can be programmed so that no rider has two programmed on the trot, but more importantly, so that riders usually have more than one heat in between their programmed rides as well. You can do it with 6 riders as well, but then you leave yourself short in the event of in-meeting injuries or when having to operate R/R. It also means that extra rides taken by reserves and (in the past) tactical subs could mean riders have 3 or more rides in a row. Actually 8 riders would be a better number for a 15 heat meeting because it would allow for more balanced heat permutations, but you're paying the travel of extra rider that isn't strictly needed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted April 13, 2016 It's not really arbitrary. 7 riders means that heats can be programmed so that no rider has two programmed on the trot, but more importantly, so that riders usually have more than one heat in between their programmed rides as well. You can do it with 6 riders as well, but then you leave yourself short in the event of in-meeting injuries or when having to operate R/R. It also means that extra rides taken by reserves and (in the past) tactical subs could mean riders have 3 or more rides in a row. Actually 8 riders would be a better number for a 15 heat meeting because it would allow for more balanced heat permutations, but you're paying the travel of extra rider that isn't strictly needed. Hi H A...Annoying bloke here...out of interest...is there any other sport that pays for travelling to a meeting/game? Can understand individual one off's etc...but weekly games/meetings? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gemini 4,894 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) ........Gresham.......I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Nothing to stop you putting a link to a photo on Facebook, Twitter or other sources. It's only photos directly onto the forum that aren't allowed. Personally I much prefer race suits to a race jacket when team mates are wearing different coloured leathers. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150150480337785&set=a.10150148628652785.325833.550797784&type=3&theater Edited April 13, 2016 by Gemini Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
