orion 7,615 Posted September 9, 2016 Cup finals and championship deciders have always attracted the best crowds, that has nothing to do with the cup and qualifier format which has been shown (in Sweden at least) to have a negative overall effect on crowds. The stock bsf answer that you can't go back to the good old days. Only an idiot dismisses something just because it was in a different era. Ha ha what is the point of having something important that doesn't attract any fans? Someone said Monday's meeting at Belle Vue is meaningless, surprised you missed it? Belle Vue riders were testing set ups on Wednesday and a Leicester rider didn't even bother to turn up for a crucial top spot meeting. What do you mean someone ? I asked you a simple question what matches are meaningless and have nothing to race for seeing top spot is important ..why would Leicester rider turn match if was a normal league match without the play offs ? When oxford and cradley used to top of the league there top riders used to out engines and set up's all the time it's hardly a new thing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) Cup finals and championship deciders have always attracted the best crowds, that has nothing to do with the cup and qualifier format which has been shown (in Sweden at least) to have a negative overall effect on crowds. No it hasn't been shown to have a negative effect in Sweden at all, as you full well know. Only you and your hilarious attempts at twisting figures can come up with such nonsense. Here is the post made by ArnieG regarding attendances in Sweden before and after playoffs introduced. The question was raised about crowds in Sweden and the effect of play-offs. Here’s the data for the Elitserien: av attendance 1994 1009 1995 1135 1996 1089 1997 1137 1998 1172 1999 1796 Play-offs introduced av attendance excluding play-offs 2000 2261 2001 2781 2002 2678 2003 2847 2004 2864 2005 3029 2006 2602 2007 2742 Play-off final attendances 2000 12242 & 7464 2001 8639 & 9080 2002 5940 & 8035 2003 5468 & 8426 2004 5709 & 7526 2005 8703 & 7264 2006 7901 & 5899 2007 9398 & 8564 Note : Tony Rickardsson was world champion in 1994/98/99/2001/02/05 (and in top four for entire period 1996-2005. 2007 was the first time since 1989 when no Swede finished in the top four of the World Championship – Andreas Jonsson in 10th place was the top Swede. Edited September 9, 2016 by BWitcher 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foreverblue 6,096 Posted September 9, 2016 Cup finals and championship deciders have always attracted the best crowds, that has nothing to do with the cup and qualifier format which has been shown (in Sweden at least) to have a negative overall effect on crowds. The stock bsf answer that you can't go back to the good old days. Only an idiot dismisses something just because it was in a different era. Ha ha what is the point of having something important that doesn't attract any fans? Someone said Monday's meeting at Belle Vue is meaningless, surprised you missed it? Belle Vue riders were testing set ups on Wednesday and a Leicester rider didn't even bother to turn up for a crucial top spot meeting. Time moves on. it's ok to reflect on the past we all do, crowd levels drop because of many things, the popularity of the sport as a whole has dropped, clubs have closed and we can sit on our sofa to watch it. The playoffs make it more exciting and this year we have Lakeside and Swindon having a playoff decider. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted September 9, 2016 Look, we've already been through this. Those figures showed crowds increasing by at least 4% on average before the qualifier and cup format was introduced and after the increase stalled and even turned negative. It is just a fact, no opinion involved. http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82341&p=2832044 I don't understand why you can't see it? but that's just not true at all is it, your picking and choosing statistics as you see fit. from 1995-1998 the crowds grew by under 1% per year. yes, eliterseien had a drop off in 2006/7 (was growing every year bar one under the play offs til that stage) - but still 1000 more fans than pre play offs, and of course the play ff finals themselves get 3-5 times the avaerage crowd from 1999 (significantly more times the average corwd fro m 98 and before) If you can look at those stats and use them as an argument AGAINST the playoffs, there really is no point debating with you. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 9, 2016 but that's just not true at all is it, your picking and choosing statistics as you see fit. from 1995-1998 the crowds grew by under 1% per year. yes, eliterseien had a drop off in 2006/7 (was growing every year bar one under the play offs til that stage) - but still 1000 more fans than pre play offs, and of course the play ff finals themselves get 3-5 times the avaerage crowd from 1999 (significantly more times the average corwd fro m 98 and before) If you can look at those stats and use them as an argument AGAINST the playoffs, there really is no point debating with you. And that is it in a nutshell. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted September 9, 2016 The average attendance in 1995 was 1135 not 1009. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ouch 1,191 Posted September 9, 2016 The crowd figures increased in Sweden due to the play offs. Therefore The crowd figures decreased in Britain due to the play offs. If you cannot apply the facts of a debate consistently then you are being selective and biased. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starman2006 2,354 Posted September 9, 2016 The crowd figures increased in Sweden due to the play offs. Therefore The crowd figures decreased in Britain due to the play offs. If you cannot apply the facts of a debate consistently then you are being selective and biased. Not at poole they don't we always have good attendances, and they just get bigger in the play off's.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted September 9, 2016 but that's just not true at all is it, your picking and choosing statistics as you see fit. from 1995-1998 the crowds grew by under 1% per year. yes, eliterseien had a drop off in 2006/7 (was growing every year bar one under the play offs til that stage) - but still 1000 more fans than pre play offs, and of course the play ff finals themselves get 3-5 times the avaerage crowd from 1999 (significantly more times the average corwd fro m 98 and before) If you can look at those stats and use them as an argument AGAINST the playoffs, there really is no point debating with you. Well said. No point debating tho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 9, 2016 The crowd figures increased in Sweden due to the play offs. Therefore The crowd figures decreased in Britain due to the play offs. If you cannot apply the facts of a debate consistently then you are being selective and biased. If you don't know what the debate is, best not to comment. Nobody has said the INCREASED crowds in Sweden (the capitals are for the less intelligent, or trolling members of the forum, who can't grasp numbers very well) are down to the playoffs.. What has been disputed is the claim by ONE person/troll that the INCREASED crowds in Sweden are evidence of play offs having a detrimental effect on attendances. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 9, 2016 What is astonishing is you continue to waste your own time with your inane ramblings. You clearly think you're being clever at your attempt to 'manipulate' the statistics, sadly for you they just further emphasise what a complete troll you are. I say troll because I refuse to believe you can be so dumb to actually believe there is any logic to your nonsense. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ouch 1,191 Posted September 9, 2016 Against my better judgement I'll indulge your trolling after seeing your post quoted within another post. In the thread " So who will win the EL in 2016" the usual row had broke out with Fred saying play offs had a detrimental effect on crowd numbers. armieg posted, The question was raised about crowds in Sweden and the effect of play-offs. Heres the data for the Elitserien....... You replied to this with Thanks for that Arnieg. Pretty much blows Fred's argument out of the water. You followed it up with, Attendances will always fluctuate from year to year, the simple facts remain, the crowds for regular league meetings are far higher in Sweden since the playoffs than in the time preceding it. You wanted facts, Arnieg has provided them. This does not tally with your reply to my post. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted September 9, 2016 What is astonishing is you continue to waste your own time with your inane ramblings. You clearly think you're being clever at your attempt to 'manipulate' the statistics, sadly for you they just further emphasise what a complete troll you are. I say troll because I refuse to believe you can be so dumb to actually believe there is any logic to your nonsense. Is it round 2 or 3 or 4 of trying to justify the same viewpoint that fails each time? Each time it's the same argument rehashed (to be wrong again). The one man band continues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SUPERACE 440 Posted September 9, 2016 The 'advanced sales' have proved to be an excellent barometer for the actual attendance at Belle Vue. The wolves sky meeting had over 700 'advanced sales' in the grandstand, you said 75% buy their tickets when they get there so that means the attendance for the wolves sky meeting was 2,800! I think it was less than that but I'm happy to go with you. On that basis our average gate is nearly 3500! I can't think of a team which has increased crowds by 3.5x (based on your 75% walk ups?) in one season, I suppose Glasgow have increased but has it actually doubled never mind over 3x? Anyway, if 75% buy their tickets on the day the crowd on Monday will probably be at least 2000 so not as bad as it might look on the telly. Advanced ticket sales were bound to drop as people realised that buying on the day made no difference. First few meetings i bought in advance, now im used to the stadium and used to buying a ticket on the day i now do that as its easier. I would suggest that a lot who uses to buy in advance now buy on the day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 9, 2016 Against my better judgement I'll indulge your trolling after seeing your post quoted within another post. In the thread " So who will win the EL in 2016" the usual row had broke out with Fred saying play offs had a detrimental effect on crowd numbers. armieg posted, The question was raised about crowds in Sweden and the effect of play-offs. Heres the data for the Elitserien....... You replied to this with Thanks for that Arnieg. Pretty much blows Fred's argument out of the water. You followed it up with, Attendances will always fluctuate from year to year, the simple facts remain, the crowds for regular league meetings are far higher in Sweden since the playoffs than in the time preceding it. You wanted facts, Arnieg has provided them. This does not tally with your reply to my post. Yes it does. The facts are attendances have not gone down in Sweden since the playoffs have been introduced, which was the crux of Fred Flange's argument. I didn't at any point say they had gone up BECAUSE of the play offs. In fact I even gave other reasons that could have an impact later on. Try again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
