iris123 21,042 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) A quote from gustix They actually both raced for the old much-loved New Cross in National League (a real NATIONAL LEAGUE) Division One in 1951. Regardless of who he was talking about riding for New Cross.in what shape was the National League by the time we get to 1951?It looks just as it does today that most teams were doing ok outside of the top league.Division 2 looks quite healthy whereas the top division much like today seems very stale with too few teams riding against each other time and time again The inclusion of the great youngster Ronnie Moore in the top 10 obviously a major plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Speedway_National_League Edited February 18, 2017 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) Here is what Peter Morrish had to say in his review of the 1951 season "37 teams were due to contest the 1951 league programme but the decline continued and Southampton and Sheffield fell by the wayside.Something near to panic set in as the year progressed with the usual subjects of pay rates and the entertainment tax looming large.March saw promoters seeking to cut pay rates by 12.5 %,and a Wimbledon meeting was cancelled as the inevitable dispute dragged on.Two First Division tracks admitted they would prefer to join the Second Division for racing with more variety at lower cost...." Edited February 18, 2017 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 23, 2017 We also have to remember that 1951 was the season that the world champion actually rode in the lower level league!!! So not really a great example from gustix to choose Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) You have chosen an isolated sentence from my original Post which was in fact debating the fact that riders took part in the 1951 National League based on their ability end not dedicated to the present day dogma of every new opportunity must go to youth. This is what I previously commented: Posted 18 February 2017 - 07:41 AM Wal Morton and Geoff Pymar. In 1963 as Bradford riders they were speedway's oldest ever pairing. Morton was then 52-years-old and Pymar 51-years-old. Morton started his speedway career in 1932 and Pymar the following year as I recall. So much for modern day speedway's dedication to youth! If one is good enough then one is old enough And late starters to the sport who went on to ride for England at National League Division Two level were Harold MacNaughton and Tom Oakley. MacNaughton began speedway racing at 37 years of age at Hastings in 1948, while Oakley then 38 years old started with Southampton about the same time. They actually both raced for the old much-loved New Cross in National League (a real NATIONAL LEAGUE) Division One in 1951. Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 23, 2017 You have chose an isolated sentence from my original Post And late starters to the sport who went on to ride for England at National League Division Two level were Harold MacNaughton and Tom Oakley. MacNaughton began speedway racing at 37 years of age at Hastings in 1948, while Oakley then 38 years old started with Southampton about the same time. They actually both raced for the old much-loved New Cross in National League (a real NATIONAL LEAGUE) Division One in 1951. My reference to a real National League was then in the context of the many top class riders involved and not as is its modern counterpart mainly a glorified training school for young riders. On my basis where are there modern day National League riders with the qualities of some 1951 riders like In essence there are quite a number of similarities between 1951 and 2016.Neither state of affairs were very healthy and neither season was the world champion riding in the league.You probably just made a typing error and picked the wrong year? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) My reference to a real National League was in the context of the many top class riders involved and not as is its modern counterpart mainly a glorified training school for young riders. On my basis where are there modern day National League riders with the qualities of some 1951 riders like Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Louis Lawson, Bob Leverenz, Norman Parker, Ernie Roccio? There are none. That was one of the reasons why rider wise it was indeed a real National League. The fact that the competition at that time was beginning to see the problems that affect speedway generally these days in no way deflects from the fact that quality wise the rider base was far superior to what modern times National League supporters have dished up for them to spectate. And the fact that two riders in their very late 30s in Harold McNaughton and Tom Oakley were able to go into action against them, hold down Division One team places, and ride for England at Division Two level I feel justifies my case. Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 23, 2017 And the fact that two riders in their very late 30s in Harold McNaughton and Tom Oakley were able to go into action against them, hold down Division One team places, and ride for England at Division Two level I feel justifies my case. Surely that very fact puts your case on dodgy ground.The fact a couple of late 30 year olds could come in against the top riders could in fact show that the similarities between then and today are very close?It has a number of times on here been pointed out that in the "old days" riders could get on a bike and within weeks get a team spot,which shows it wasn't very professional.Not a case i have made,but one i think BWitcher has on ocassion made Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 Surely that very fact puts your case on dodgy ground.The fact a couple of late 30 year olds could come in against the top riders could in fact show that the similarities between then and today are very close?It has a number of times on here been pointed out that in the "old days" riders could get on a bike and within weeks get a team spot,which shows it wasn't very professional.Not a case i have made,but one i think BWitcher has on ocassion made Then who in the 'modern day National League' is of the same calibre as these 1951 National League riders - Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Louis Lawson, Bob Leverenz, Norman Parker, Ernie Roccio? But I know you will argue on - and on - and on! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 23, 2017 Then who in the 'modern day National League' is of the same calibre as these 1951 National League riders - Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Louis Lawson, Bob Leverenz, Norman Parker, Ernie Roccio? But I know you will argue on - and on - and on! As the saying goes "when in a hole,stop digging" Chris Holder is a former world champion,Jason Doyle was fighting for the title before injury robbed him of that chance.Niels Kristian Iversen;Freddie Lindgren,Matej Zagar etc are all top riders. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 Then who in the 'modern day National League' is of the same calibre as these 1951 National League riders - Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Louis Lawson, Bob Leverenz, Norman Parker, Ernie Roccio? But I know you will argue on - and on - and on! As the saying goes "when in a hole,stop digging" Chris Holder is a former world champion,Jason Doyle was fighting for the title before injury robbed him of that chance.Niels Kristian Iversen;Freddie Lindgren,Matej Zagar etc are all top riders. I am completely baffled - as I am sure others must be - by the twaddle you churn out to defend yourself. What is the quote all about? I was comparing the calibre of riders in the 1951 National League with the 'class and calibre' of today's aspirants in that league. Now you bounce back with the quoted item: none of these have ever raced in either the 1951 National League or the modern version of same. Just a manœuvre I think by7 you as you resort to 'attempting to defend the in defendable'. But I know you won't give up! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HertsRacer 222 Posted February 23, 2017 I am completely baffled - as I am sure others must be - by the twaddle you churn out to defend yourself. What is the quote all about? I was comparing the calibre of riders in the 1951 National League with the 'class and calibre' of today's aspirants in that league. Now you bounce back with the quoted item: none of these have ever raced in either the 1951 National League or the modern version of same. Just a manœuvre I think by7 you as you resort to 'attempting to defend the in defendable'. But I know you won't give up! I think you and Iris are talking at cross purposes here. I assume you mean the 1951 National League (top Division) as oppose to the modern National League (third division),while Iris assumes you are comparing the old National League (top division) with the current top division, the Premier League. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) I think you and Iris are talking at cross purposes here. I assume you mean the 1951 National League (top Division) as oppose to the modern National League (third division),while Iris assumes you are comparing the old National League (top division) with the current top division, the Premier League. Thanks HertsRacer. You have summed up my comment very well. I was indeed comparing the standard for the 1951 National League at Division One level with the present National League (UK's current third level of speedway). TBH they are world's apart IMO. Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1951 National League Above is the title of this thread. But TBH after the day's activities on here I don't think I really care anymore. Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,042 Posted February 24, 2017 I think you and Iris are talking at cross purposes here. I assume you mean the 1951 National League (top Division) as oppose to the modern National League (third division),while Iris assumes you are comparing the old National League (top division) with the current top division, the Premier League. Quite right HertsRacer I didn't realise it was just a nonsensical comparison just because the leagues share the same name.I guess that the reputation of the old National League had dropped so far that on a re-launch in 1965 they decide it was best to drop it and re-brand the product Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
