BWitcher

Not valid WK. We've already discussed the old tactical system was more unfair (which is the reason for you disliking it). You've also stated you held the old tactical rules in equal contempt. "If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainsets." Clearly I must be missing something here, perhaps others could fill me in, but what attracted me to the sport of speedway was, the four laps of speedway action. What provides me with the entertainment is the four laps of speedway action. I'd even go as far as to say that 99.99999999999% of speedway fans go to speedway for watching those 4 laps (x 15). Tell us Moxey, what are we missing? Again, you tell us, the rules are a joke.. which rule?

So you keep saying, but we are still waiting for ONE, besides the starts which I have given you as a freebie, that effects what you are actually watching on track.

Avoiding the question again Moxey. You are claiming a fan from 30 years ago couldn't go to a speedway match now and understand what was happening. So tell me, aside from the starts, what else has changed that would mean they couldn't understand the racing on track? The FACTS are, when it boils down to what matters, what the punter is watching, speedway has changed far less in that time than Football, Rugby, Cricket, NFL, MLB, Tennis and many many other sports.

Major rule change? The starts. Let me know of anything else that's different in terms of what matters, i.e. the 4 riders racing around the track. Of course if you are referring to the behind the scenes governance of the sport, team building etc then the others sports will have changed far far more as well.

In fact, having given Moxeys comments further thought, he is more wrong than I at first thought. Football has changed far more in the last 30 years than Speedway. Offside rule changed, can't pass back to the goalkeeper, technical areas for managers, 6 second rule for goalies (although never adhered too), tackling (especially slide) almost redundant in the game... just a few examples that would look very very different to someone who skipped 30 years of football evolution. What has changed in speedway in that time in terms of what matters, on the track? The starts.. that is basically it! No, you had a far more unfair system instead, we've already covered that in enough detail. Please, inform us of one of these ridiculous regulations that effect your enjoyment of a speedway race.

Still waffling on Moxey whilst avoiding the questions that pretty much render your comments null and void.

Explain the Duckworth-Lewis rule for me in Cricket please Moxey. As earlier, explain the challenge system in Tennis. Explain to me the financial fair play rules in Football. Explain to me the Rule 5 Draft in MLB. Explain to me the rules for where a Tight End can line up in NFL. 5 Massive sports in which I have no doubt over 75% of its fans wouldn't know the answer to those questions. Does it effect them? No it doesn't. Every sport has its regulations that your average fan doesn't know. Speedway has always had them, even back in the 60's and 70's. The difference is, you didn't have a forum where these rules were being highlighted all the time.

Yes they could. Take anyone who went in 1950, 1960, 1970 and they would know the sport now. It hasn't changed.

Funnily enough my Dad watched a speedway match with me on TV last night. He understood the rules quite clearly too and hasn't watched in years. Tell me about the challenge system used in Tennis 30 years ago Moxey, how did that work? Speedway doesn't have 'so many rules' either. Other sports have far lengthier rule books, but the majority of supporters aren't particularly concerned with studying them in fine detail. In saying that, the majority of speedway fans likely aren't either, it's a small minority of us 'statto' types on here that pull up the rulebook all the time.

They've changed them more than you think. Don't get me wrong Moxey, the sport has a major issue with the manipulation of the rules. My point is that they not all that complicated.

With respect, that's hardly a difficult question to answer is it. All sports have rules and many are far more complicated than in speedway. Do you think most fans who watch F1 know all the rules and regulations? Most fans won't even know half the rules that are in football!

The rules are manipulated yes, but that's a different issue to the 'complexity' of them. The other issue I can see is poorly qualified referees and officials. The referees should know the rulebook like the back of their hand. The oversights that have crept in of late are quite simply not justifiable. If they don't know the rules, they shouldn't be doing the job.

They're actually quite simple compared to many sports.

Much of that makes sense Tsunami, although some of the parts you fail to mention is that many of those who no longer post on here, also no longer attend speedway. That's not through posts on this forum, that's through the ineptness of the way the sport is run and in some cases as a direct result of promoters attitudes towards the internet/forums/social media etc. It seems you and the BSPA hide behind an argument of 'its only a few moaners'. You couldn't be further from the truth. The few moaners are the ones who, although disillusioned with many aspects of the sport, still want to see it prosper. You fail to grasp that thousands of others don't stick around. They don't voice their opinion, explain what is wrong. They just STOP going. That is an absolute undeniable fact. Too little is done to identify why they have stopped going. Nobody is saying that promoters should read the forums and implement all the ideas that are offered up here, that would be crazy. What is being said is they shouldn't be publicly attacking forums. There is absolutely nothing to gain from it. You won't get one extra fan through the turnstiles by attacking forums and by definition those who post on them, but you sure as hell will lose a few... so where's the logic? For what its worth, I do believe there have been some improvements of late from a number of clubs who are beginning to embrace technology and what it can bring to them. I fully agree there is little point in promoters getting involved in individual spats, that would be pointless.

Do explain.

Point out where I have 'attacked' someone Tsunami. I have explained why some posts have been inherently wrong, but I have not attacked any individuals. If you're referring to Bryn, he understands I haven't attacked him.. shame you have to let a personal grudge get in the way and barnstorm into a thread again. You will also note that a number of others on the thread have said the same things, but alas, as per normal you don't spot those because everything becomes personal with you. Try reading posts, not the names of the posters. Now if you don't mind there was an interesting discussion taking place before you barnstormed in, but I do thank you for confirming what many on this thread have said... many members (not all) of the BSPA and their lackeys have zero public relations skills.

Or the guy who has sponsored riders over the years totalling a 5 figure sum, travelled the length and breadth of the country supporting his team, flies back from Portugal when he can to follow his team, doesn't scrounge of the sport by claiming free entrance just because he helps out here and there (another scourge of the sport). Thank you Tsunami for PRECISELY summing up why this sport struggles for both sponsors and support. It's a shame Tsunami that in what was a very constructive thread with a variety of opinions being put forward you have chosen to lower it by launching a personal attack.

Once again, you don't understand. It's not up to the customer (fan) to get their feelings across to the seller (promoter). The seller should be using all means possible to obtain feedback on their product. Its basic business sense. This forum provides free feedback that some businesses have to spend a lot of money to obtain. The best businesses find critical feedback far more useful than pats on the back.

Absolutely spot on mikebv.

It will be very easy for promoters to have one to one conversations with ALL their fans soon. You STILL fail to get it. Its not up to the customer to ensure their views are 'heard/acted' on. Any decent business would be ensuring that THEY are 'hearing/acting on' the views of their customers.

More antiquated nonsense I'm afraid Bryn. Continuing to trot out the 'hiding behind a forum name nonsense' is just another example of just how out of touch the promoters and many of those associated with them are in this sport. You don't need to hire rooms or wander around the terraces to engage with your fanbase anymore. That is precisely the point of this thread. I will tell you one thing that most certainly IS easier for folks than both posting on here, or speaking directly to a promoter.... and that's simply not going anymore. But hey, we don't know the names of the thousands who no longer go, so they don't count.

You have to ask yourself why some of the stuff on here has 'come about'. My point regarding face to face is not in relation to the 'abusive' posts, its more in line with the fact that most people will not be as critical in a face to face situation. On a forum they are far more likely to reveal the real reasons why they are disillusioned with the sport and to ignore such views is to wash money down the drain...

I can't agree with any of that Vince (apart from it's their money/risk etc) You simply do not attack your customers, or dismiss their comments out of hand as not 'credible'. Forums such as this give promoters a powerful tool to actually understand some of the gripes and frustrations that their customers have. The BSPA policy is often to ignore that. The results speak for themselves. People only posting what they would say to someones face.. again, antiquated and out of date. Informaton is power, many businesses would love to know what their customers 'real' thoughts were so they could improve their business accordingly.

They don't do it for us. That's not showing a lack of respect for riders as I respect them as much as anyone else, but the notion of them doing it to 'entertain' people is a foolish one. They do it because they enjoy it, to earn money and for personal glory. Their efforts in pursuit of those goals can be entertaining to us..

Its this heat WK, it's getting to us all!!