chunky

We went through this a couple of weeks ago! You called me "unco-operative", yet I always try to answer and explain things. You wanted to know what I was talking about, and why I was surprised you couldn't call me by my name - when others knew me - and I regularly posted my name. I explained, but you missed it. You wanted to know why I was upset at an ignorant comment about my profession. I explained, yet you missed it. We have had several off-forum conversations, both on here and on Facebook, but you can't remember them. You complain about others deviating on this thread, yet you did it yourself - twice. I draw your attention to them, but you can't find them. I make a light-hearted response to your comment, but you were offended. Then, you say you regret starting this thread. Why? It is a great thread! Several of us have had a fascinating discussion, but because everything goes above your head, you come back with crap like you did. Why, John? Just try to stay on the same page as the rest of us...

You complained about people deviating from the thread title. However, YOU were the one who wanted to see Sidney's all-time (not British) Top 20 list - on this thread. YOU were the one who brought up the subject of books about American boxers - on this thread. I'm not babbling at all - just pointing out (yet not complaining) that you have been responsible for deviations on this thread - that YOU complained about. You still don't know who I am, or what I do, do you, John?

It was just unfortunate that he was at his peak when there was no World Championship. Like Vic Duggan...

I've beaten Paul Woods, Hughie Saunders, and Peter Tarrant - at darts... Does that count? Sorry gustix, I deviated; you can go back to your books about American boxers now...

Absolutely. Same as it has been in other motorsports (remember, Barry Sheene was No. 7), and of course, what has happened to football in recent years.

I totally get what you are saying, and as I said, I always appreciate reason and logic. The thing with Price, it wasn't just him... How many other riders could have developed into world-beaters had the war not intervened? You seem to be taking my first point a little to literally, though! There WERE events, just nothing like we have had since, and certainly not at a true international level. Having said that, there can be little doubt that virtually all of the world's best riders at that point were competing in the UK. So, even domestic meetings could be used here.

Go look on Google Maps in satellite view - you can't miss it. Very sad...

Sorry, forgot about that! As you say, though, that was totally meaningless and misleading because of the time period involved. Still, nobody has attempted a comparison based on overall performance...

That's good, coming from the individual who not only asked Sidney to name his Top 20 riders of all-time here, but also had the audacity to introduce American boxers into the thread!

My point is that league racing is a totally different level to world championship. It is not simply a case of how many titles, but of other performances at the top level, such as world championship rostrums, performance in Inter-Continental Finals and European Finals (although the quality of those did vary greatly), and World Pairs. Of course, these are also intertwined with longevity and consistency. It is stuff like that we use (along with home track advantage) when trying to differentiate between riders with similar records, such as Lee/Collins, and Loram/Havelock. However, NOBODY has yet attempted to compare Craven and Williams! I maintain that Woffy's SoN heroics last year were far more impressive than PC's WTC maximums. Woffy faced the vast majority of the world's best riders - at least twice - whereas Collins faced Michanek and Sjosten. His other main rivals were either not there (Mauger, Olsen etc) or on his own team. Forget about three meetings against one too, as Collins had 12 races against Tai's 13. Steve

Just how much influence should league averages have? I'm thinking of how good the Boococks were on the domestic scene, but not major threats on the international front. You say about comparing Lee with Craven or Collins, but again, should Havvy's dominance in '92 outshine Loram's more consistent performances?

Interesting, Parker above Lee? That should provoke some discussion...

Fair point. Again, I have no issue when people use reason and facts to substantiate their views...

Have to agree with that, and probably put Williams ahead of Price, seeing as he won twice as many titles as his team-mate.

That's what really irks me! If you are going to get rid of something so you can reuse the land for something else, that's fine, but to just rush into demolition, and then leave it sitting for years, that's crazy... Steve

Never did the fish and chips, but I went up there a few times when I had a Wednesday off. One particular year, there were a large group of us flying over to compete in the Canadian Open. Everybody else flew out on the Wednesday, but I went up to watch the Dons and flew out the next day! Now, that's dedication! Steve

Never saw him, so he doesn't count!

I agree with you 100%. As I have said, considering the quality of the opposition, those three WTC maximums aren't as impressive as they first seem, but when you look it PC's record, he HAS to be above Lee. As we have said, the fact that PC was not a multi-world champion was down to bad luck and circumstances not of his own doing. The fact that Lee wasn't a multi-world champion was down to his own failings, and it is those failings that cause him to be rated below Collins. Of course, it is DIFFICULT to compare any sportspersons from different eras, but that is why we have records. For Sidney to suggest that we can simply dismiss someone just because we didn't see them at their best - or maybe didn't even see them at all - is ludicrous. I never saw Fundin anywhere near his best, but when you look at riders in the 20th century, NOBODY can deny that Mauger and Fundin were the best two... You can't just say, "He was better - I know, because I saw him ride..."

Gustix seems to think so...

I know Les definitely retired. I never really knew so much about Sandy or his career. Funny thing is - and this is probably going back almost 30 years - but I saw a photo of Sandy in Darts World magazine! Every month, the Essex page would include a pic of a team in their local league, and one month, it was Sandy's team. Steve

Plus, people forget just how good a World Final record he had, considering he just "toyed" with speedway...

Thank you so much! If anyone noticed, it was going to be you!

And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level. Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies.

16 1/2 years on, and does anyone in British speedway still have the last night fun and games? In fact, does anyone still have fun at British speedway?

Wwith Caxton speedway not too far behind...