chunky

Don't forget, he was on a "bike that doesn't have brakes", so apparently once the bike has started moving, it won't slow down or stop until it hits something...

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting, and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne.... Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things : 1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!" 2) "It was a lot better in my day!" Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons. Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway! Steve

Just checked the history pages at the excellent speedway.org, and that confirms it. Sam was on 12 after 4, and Havvy was third in his fourth ride, putting him on 8 alongside Gollob, Nielsen, and Louis. Steve

Thing is, while titles aren't everything (certainly not National Championships anyway), they are a guide at the highest level. Therefore, Woffinden's record is far superior to that of any British rider, which is why we believe he is the best. Craven won less, but as I said, he can be considered a genuine contender for the moniker of "Best Brit". Lee's record is worse, and his self-destructive streak and poor temperament means that realistically, he is not in the same class as Woffinden or Craven. Just because he had more talent and more potential doesn't mean that he was better. It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there. Steve

Craven is a genuine contender, with two wins and two thirds, in a career that wasn't cut short by his own frailties and poor decisions. As others have said, Lee's self-destruction weighs heavily against him, as there is more to being an all-time great than talent and potential.

I was deliberately keeping quiet about Buzz...

I might just as well, because we can't get any sense out of you... You STATED that. Am I wrong?

That's YOUR opinion!

It was your opinion that I considered Michael Lee an "also-ran". That was clearly an opinion that was WRONG, as there is no fact behind that claim whatsoever.

That wasn't just aimed at Midland Red. You're still not getting it! Everybody has an opinion, that's fine. However, if you want your opinion to stand up against opinions to the contrary, then it is a good idea to use facts to support that opinion. Three World Championships, a silver, a bronze, plus a scintillating near-perfect display in the 2018 SoN Final are what some of us use to support the case for Tai. Saying, "I saw them both ride" does nothing. For years, I considered Simmo a better rider than Chris Morton. I saw them both ride many times, and from what I recall, Simmo had achieved more at the highest level. Last year, we were discussing the merits of both, and it was brought to my attention that Mort's achievements were actually superior - by quite a long way. It appears that I was using just the one season - 1976 - to cloud my judgment. I am grateful that somebody used FACT to support their claims, and PROVE to me that I was, in fact, WRONG. Yes, opinions CAN be wrong, as they cannot trump FACT.

It is also a fact that a GP series drastically reduces the luck factor. A series requires consistent performances throughout a whole season. Jerzy Szczakiel became World Champion after completing just six races. I have never claimed that was "luck", because he rode well on the night, but it was a lot easier to win a World Championship by having one good meeting.

They don't get it, do they?

Correct; Pocking. Vojens was in 88 and 94 - the very last World Final. I just thought it hilarious that this thread was about a recent meeting at Vojens, and when asking about World Finals that still had a track, Vojens wasn't mentioned!!! Do they still race at Pocking? Edit : Just checked, and Pocking is still active, so there is another one. Steve

Um, Vojens???

Using facts to substantiate an opinion is vastly different from using baseless opinions to substantiate an opinion...

Strange, isn't it? I haven't heard you whining constantly this year about how Madsen was "spoon fed a place without earning it". If you think Tai was "lucky", then that same criticism can be levelled at EVERY wild card. By winning the title when he was entered as a wild card, it proves that they were right to pick him, and that he WAS worthy of a place in the field. Steve

I don't disagree with you on that, but modern sport seems to be littered with wildcards. For me, the big problem with the old system was that there was no consistency, and everyone had different routes and a different number of meetings. I'm not sure, but I think there ,may have been some kind of rule in place. Of course, it was very different from previous years, with the first four from the British Final making the World Final... Steve

The thing to remember is that : In order for Tai to become World Champion, he had to compete in 12 meetings (the same as everybody else). In order for Egon Muller to become 1983 World Champion, he had to compete in 5 meetings (fewer than some) In order for Ole Olsen to become 1978 World Champion, he had to compete in 2 meetings (fewer than most) In order for Jerzy Szczakiel to become 1973 World Champion, he had to compete in 1 meeting (fewer than anyone else) Steve

Bur remember, ALL the riders back then were so much better than today's...

I hated him, and thought he was a psycho tw*t, and what he did was terrible. However, we can't change history, and he was a great rider.

Wish people felt that way when talking about Carter, but no, we're not supposed to mention him...

Which is pretty much what I said. Yet according to Sidney, that means I classed him as an also-ran...

And he has qualified every year since...

We know that the media has never been reliable or consistent, and they just choose what they want to - or don't want to - cover, without there being any valid reasons. We have to ask ourselves this : Is the current state of British Speedway responsible for the lack of press and media coverage? Is the lack of press and media coverage responsible for the current state of British Speedway? Are the two inexorably connected, or is it just coincidence? Even leaving aside our old friend Dave Lanning's contributions, we had the Sunday Mirror World Championship, results posted in the Daily Mirror, the Daily Express Spring Classic, the LBC Dons, results announced on Radio Luxembourg, team lineups posted in the London Evening News, the Yorkshire TV Trophy, and plenty more. So, why???

That is slightly unfair, particularly in regard to a team like Wigan. Speedway never caught on there, and there were only a few odd seasons, so it is not surprising that it remains largely unknown in the area. Having said that, you are correct in saying that enough is not being done by MOST clubs. Sad thing is, that was always the case...