waiheke1 4,295 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Alright, to re-open an old topic. I’ve spent a bit of time devising a system for rating riders’ performances in any given season, and have applied this to each year in the 80s. World Championship Qualifying meetings, World Final, Internationals (Pairs, TC and Tests) and British League meetings are considered and each of those categories are given equal weighting (22.5%). Additionally performances in the BLRC are also considered (10%). The output is an “average” which I have included here for comparative purposes only, as it is not meaningful in itself. If you want to try to make a meaningful interpretation of the actual score, the top 15 riders in the worlds rankings for any given year do tend to add up to close to 138, so could be taken as an estimate of what the rider would score as an average in a GP round had GPs been running. Based on the rankings, and taking riders’ top three seasons in the 80s, the list of 20 Brits would be: 1 Kenny Carter 11.51 2 Michael Lee 10.92 3 Dave Jessup 10.36 4 Chris Morton 9.67 5 Kelvin Tatum 9.63 6 Jeremy doncaster 8.90 7 Simon Wigg 8.70 8 Peter Collin 8.29 9 Les Collins 8.09 10 Alan Grahame 7.36 11 Simon Cross 7.22 12 John Davis 7.17 13 Andy Grahame 6.75 14 Neil Evitts 6.62 15 John Louis 6.52 16 Phil Collins 6.49 17 Gordon Kennet 6.15 18 Andy Smith 6.14 19 Malcolm Simmons 6.09 20 Marvyn Cox 6.07 This is not dissimilar to the list I posted earlier, though notably KC emerges comfortably on top, and the three “veterans” Louis, Kennett and Simmons all make the list. Some other points of note: Dave Jessup was the only British rider to finish top of the rankings in any year (1980) Kenny Carter and Mike Lee were the only two other Brits to make the top3 in any year, KC being 2nd in both 81 and 82 and Lee 3rd in both 80 and 83. Jessup would have finished 3rd in the 81 rankings if not for his two ef in the world final. KC (81,82,85) and Tatum (86,88,89) were both the top Brits in 3 years, with Jessup (80), Lee (83), Wigg (84) and Doncaster (87) being the others. Morton was in the top 5 Brits every year except for 82 and 89, and in the top 10 in the world on six occasions (80,81,83,84,86,88). Tatum was in the top 2 Brits every year 1985-89, and was in the top 6 riders in the world every year in that period. 1980 as clearly the best season for England, with four of the top 6 spots being held by Brits (Jessup (1), Lee (3), Peter Collins (4), Chris Morton (6). 1986 was the worst season, with only two Brits in the top 10 and Tatum the top ranked at 6th (Mort the other one 9th). If instead of basing the results on top three seasons you based it on the top 5 seasons, the top 10 changes slightly, rewarding the consistency of Mort and Tatum. 1 Kenny Carter 10.29 2 Kelvin Tatum 9.52 3 Chris Morton 9.29 4Michael Lee 8.99 5 Dave Jessup 8.62 6 Simon Wigg 8.34 7 Peter Collin 7.67 8Jeremy doncaster 7.60 9 Les Collins 7.28 10 Alan Grahame 6.77 Alternatively, if you based it on a single season peak (year and overall world ranking given in brackets): Top 10 (based on single seaon peak) 1 Dave Jessup 13.03 1980 (1) 2 Kenny Carter 12.15 1982 (2) 3 Michael Lee 11.88 1983 (3) 4 Peter Collins 10.12 1980 (4) 5 Chris Morton 9.84 1981 (6) 6 Les Collins 9.83 1982 (7) 7 Kelvin Tatum 9.72 1988 (5) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 9.59 1987 (5) 9 Simon Wigg 9.40 1989 (5) 10 John Davis 8.80 1980 (12) Or if you wanted to reward performances over the whole decade and based the rankings on cumulative points: 1 Chris Morton 2 Simon Wigg 3 Kenny Carter 4 Dave Jessyp 5 Les Collins 6 John David 7 Alan Grahame 8 Kelvin Tatum 9 Michael Lee 10 Andy Grahame Interestingly, under none of the four systems of rankings does Mike Lee, the most popular selection of top Brit above, emerge as top. I’d suggest this indicates: You can look at all the stats you like, but ultimately what really matters is winning the world title, everything else is secondary Results and stats cannot reflect the sheer natural talent that was Lee Kelvin Tatum was the big surprise for me from the rankings, emerging as comfortably the best Brit over the second half of the decade, whereas I have always rated him behind Wigg. Edited March 31, 2014 by waihekeaces1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted March 31, 2014 Alright, to re-open an old topic. I’ve spent a bit of time devising a system for rating riders’ performances in any given season, and have applied this to each year in the 80s. World Championship Qualifying meetings, World Final, Internationals (Pairs, TC and Tests) and British League meetings are considered and each of those categories are given equal weighting (22.5%). Additionally performances in the BLRC are also considered (10%). The output is an “average” which I have included here for comparative purposes only, as it is not meaningful in itself. If you want to try to make a meaningful interpretation of the actual score, the top 15 riders in the worlds rankings for any given year do tend to add up to close to 138, so could be taken as an estimate of what the rider would score as an average in a GP round had GPs been running. Based on the rankings, and taking riders’ top three seasons in the 80s, the list of 20 Brits would be: I think those stats tell you everything really, stats they are so misleading laughable really.Carter i was a big fan of a great racer he did achieve quite alot in his career but off my head he certainly would not be in my top five Brits of all time.He never was at his best ever better than PC or Lee and probably would never of ever been.Justs shows you with stats you can dress it up but in Three finals Carter failed where PC and Lee's world final record's speak for themselves saying that a great POST and very interesting. 1 Kenny Carter 11.51 2 Michael Lee 10.92 3 Dave Jessup 10.36 4 Chris Morton 9.67 5 Kelvin Tatum 9.63 6 Jeremy Doncaster 8.90 7 Simon Wigg 8.70 8 Peter Collins 8.29 9 Les Collins 8.06 10 Alan Grahame 7.36 11 Simon Cross 7.22 12 Neil Evitts 6.62 13 John Davis 7.17 14 Phil Collins 6.49 15 Andy Grahame 6.75 16 John Louis 6.52 17 Gordon Kennett 6.15 18 Andy Smith 6.14 19 Malcolm Simmons 6.09 20 Marvyn Cox 6.07 This is not dissimilar to the list I posted earlier, though notably KC emerges comfortably on top, and the three “veterans” Louis, Kennett and Simmons all make the list. Some other points of note: Dave Jessup was the only British rider to finish top of the rankings in any year (1980) Kenny Carter and Mike Lee were the only two other Brits to make the top3 in any year, KC being 2nd in both 81 and 82 and Lee 3rd in both 80 and 83. Jessup would have finished 3rd in the 81 rankings if not for his two ef in the world final. KC (81,82,85) and Tatum (86,88,89) were both the top Brits in 3 years, with Jessup (80), Lee (83), Wigg (84) and Doncaster (87) being the others. Morton was in the top 5 Brits every year except for 82 and 89, and in the top 10 in the world on six occasions (80,81,83,84,86,88). Tatum was in the top 2 Brits every year 1985-89, and was in the top 6 riders in the world every year in that period. 1980 as clearly the best season for England, with four of the top 6 spots being held by Brits (Jessup (1), Lee (3), Peter Collins (4), Chris Morton (6). 1986 was the worst season, with only two Brits in the top 10 and Tatum the top ranked at 6th (Mort the other one 9th). If instead of basing the results on top three seasons you based it on the top 5 seasons, the top 10 changes slightly, rewarding the consistency of Mort and Tatum. Top 10 (based on best 5 seasons) 1 Kenny Carter 10.29 2 Kelvin Tatum 9.52 3 Chris Morton 9.29 4 Michael Lee 8.99 5 Dave Jessup 8.61 6 Simon Wigg 8.34 7 Peter Collins 7.67 8 Jeremy Doncaster 7.60 9 Les Collins 7.28 10 Alan Grahame 6.77 If instead you based it on a single season peak (year and overall world ranking given in brackets): Top 10 (based on single seaon peak) 1 Dave Jessup 13.05 1980 (1) 2 Kenny Carter 12.15 1982 (2) 3 Michael Lee 11.88 1983 (3) 4 Peter Collins 10.12 1980 (4) 5 Chris Morton 9.84 1981 (6) 6 Les Collins 9.83 1982 (7) 7 Kelvin Tatum 9.72 1988 (5) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 9.59 1987 (5) 9 Simon Wigg 9.40 1989 (5) 10 John Davis 8.80 1980(12) Or if you wanted to reward performances over the whole decade and based the rankings on cumulative points: Top 10 (cumulative) 1 Chris Morton 2 Simon Wigg 3 Kenny Carter 4 Dave Jessup 5 Les Collins 6 John Davis 7 Alan Grahame 8 Kelvin Tatum 9 Michael Lee 10 Andy Grahame Interestingly, under none of the four systems of rankings does Mike Lee, the most popular selection of top Brit above, emerge as top. I’d suggest this indicates: You can look at all the stats you like, but ultimately what really matters is winning the world title, everything else is secondary Results and stats cannot reflect the sheer natural talent that was Lee Kelvin Tatum was the big surprise for me from the rankings, emerging as comfortably the best Brit over the second half of the decade, whereas I have always rated him behind Wigg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted March 31, 2014 sidney, that giant font you have used in quoting hurts my eyes! remember, this is based purely on the 80s, where Carter certainly out performed PC and arguably Lee as well (in all areas other than world finals Carter had a better record than Lee in the 80s). If I get the chance I'll do the same for the 70s, where undoutably PC would emerge top, I'd imagine Lee and Simmonsw ould be next in line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 1, 2014 sidney, that giant font you have used in quoting hurts my eyes! remember, this is based purely on the 80s, where Carter certainly out performed PC and arguably Lee as well (in all areas other than world finals Carter had a better record than Lee in the 80s). If I get the chance I'll do the same for the 70s, where undoutably PC would emerge top, I'd imagine Lee and Simmonsw ould be next in line. You are spot on in your analysis,but i stlll believe Lee's best in 83 was better than anything Carter ever achieved in the 80s.The Golden helmet proved this both riders motivated and in the two legs Lee murdered him.As you have said World Final records well that is a no contest on records the only thing Carter had the upper hand in was the BLRC and even then Lee has been placed himself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 1, 2014 Restricting to the 80s: carter had 2 blrc lee 0. 2 british titles lee 0. Carter 1 pairs title and two runners up, lee won a wtc. Neither won an overseas or inter continental title. Carter topped the bl aversges, lee didnt. Carter was regularly englands top test performer, lee didnt top score for england in any test series. Of course, if you include lee's achievement s in the 70s it is no contest, and whereas lee is one of the top 3 post war brits (imho), wheras carter may make the top dozen. But in the 80s it is "only" world final night where lee surpassed carter. For me that is enough to rank lee ahesd of carter as best brit of the 80s, but I was unsurprised that statistical ly carter out performed him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 1, 2014 Restricting to the 80s: carter had 2 blrc lee 0. 2 british titles lee 0. Carter 1 pairs title and two runners up, lee won a wtc. Neither won an overseas or inter continental title. Carter topped the bl aversges, lee didnt. Carter was regularly englands top test performer, lee didnt top score for england in any test series. Of course, if you include lee's achievement s in the 70s it is no contest, and whereas lee is one of the top 3 post war brits (imho), wheras carter may make the top dozen. But in the 80s it is "only" world final night where lee surpassed carter. For me that is enough to rank lee ahesd of carter as best brit of the 80s, but I was unsurprised that statistical ly carter out performed him. Lee was placed in the 83 British final where was Carter ? Lee was placed in the 83 BLRC where by then Lee was the only brit to be able to beat the big two Danes Lee piddled all over NIelsen in the pride of the east he got the track record. that night. Carter was never good anough to do that.Lee was placed at Norden where was Kenny ? also Lee piddled all over Carter in the helmet that was fact i liked Carter rated him but Lee's overall cv record is there there in black and white Carter never had the chance to prove otherwise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 2, 2014 have to agree to disagree Sid. , I reckon the 82 Carter (averged over 11, won BLRC,World Pairs title, excelelnt in the WTCqualifiers/tests, rostrum every rounf od the world qualifiers) was better thean the 83 Lee (talking about over a whole season, LEe on any given day could be utterly unstoppable). Lee in 83 as better than Carter, and in 80 was miles ahead. But 81,82,84 -86 Carter was conforably the bteer of the two. I notice you didn't mention the 81 and 92 BLRC where Carter "piddled all over" the likes of Nielsen, Penhall (81)/Gundersen (82), Lee etc. In terms of my "ranking"S I make Carter 82 version the best either achieved in the decase, followed by Lee (83), Lee (80), then Carter (81), Carter (83), Carter (85). Now I reckon Carter 85 was much better than the Carter of 83, but his ranking there is dragged down by failure to make the world final, poor score in his one completed ride in the i/c, and poor England performances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 2, 2014 have to agree to disagree Sid. , I reckon the 82 Carter (averged over 11, won BLRC,World Pairs title, excelelnt in the WTCqualifiers/tests, rostrum every rounf od the world qualifiers) was better thean the 83 Lee (talking about over a whole season, LEe on any given day could be utterly unstoppable). Lee in 83 as better than Carter, and in 80 was miles ahead. But 81,82,84 -86 Carter was conforably the bteer of the two. I notice you didn't mention the 81 and 92 BLRC where Carter "piddled all over" the likes of Nielsen, Penhall (81)/Gundersen (82), Lee etc. In terms of my "ranking"S I make Carter 82 version the best either achieved in the decase, followed by Lee (83), Lee (80), then Carter (81), Carter (83), Carter (85). Now I reckon Carter 85 was much better than the Carter of 83, but his ranking there is dragged down by failure to make the world final, poor score in his one completed ride in the i/c, and poor England performances. The BLRC victories to my mind were Carters greatest achievement forget the team medals Lee also won a few of them.1982 to me was easily Lee's worst year in speedway but up to then from 1977 he had averaged 10 plus in the BL i think in 82 he averaged about 9.70.Also you have to remember how many individual meeting's Lee won over the years quite a few and some big titles so there he would get the edge.Your stats and theory are spot on and i respect your knowledge of the sport but i cannot agree about Carter in 82 that version in my mind was never superior to Lee of 1980 and 1983.In 82 the record book says Carter failed the pressure of the world final got to him he didn't even have to beat Penhall in that race he could of maybe? waited for a run off.The biggest point though that none of us have ever mentioned is RESPECT i know Lee has had grave problems in his life but as far as i know as a rider and person he is respected and liked.Kenny never had that he never earned that respect was his own man and often had disregard for others sometimes reckless and dangerous as a rider after all that i did enjoy watching him ride and he was hell of a rider. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted April 2, 2014 I wish Peter Collins had been at his best in the '80's - he would have definitely been better that all of them. :approve: Discuss. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) WK PC and Lee should of been around for at least another five seasons at the top level but it wasn't to be.What frustrated me was that from 83 onwards the two Danes dominated until the the late 80s Ermolenko and Moran showed they were good anough to rock the boat.But in 83 Lee showed he could compete and beat the Danes and Carter too, both had good head to head records with both of them.PC after his Arm/ shoulder injury he was finished at the top level he was unfortunate because the 70s era was a damn site harder than the 80s. Edited April 2, 2014 by sidney Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelcroucher 30 Posted April 4, 2014 the top 5 should be Jeremy Doncaster, Kelvin Tatum, Paul Thorp, Simon Wigg, Simon Cross as this was the last time Uk had won Gold at World team cup in the 80s. I always thought Steve Scofield was a good rider. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruiser McHuge 589 Posted April 5, 2014 It depends if you judge it over a whole decade or just a small period of the decade when a rider had his best spell.. I would judge it on the latter and in that case no British rider in the 80's come close to Michael Lee and Kenny Carter in my opinion...Lee won a world title and longtrack title in the decade so that alone put shine number 1 ...and he had a comeback year at Poole where he could have won a other title....... Carter for me was as fast as anybody I've seen at Hyde Road...I've said before that it's a north south divide as far as Carter is concerned...I saw him reguarly at Hyde Road, Halifax and Sheffield and he was tremendous and between 81 and 83 was possibly the best rider in the world with let alone Britain, and only injuries after that held him back To me no riders come close to Lee and Carter as the top 80's riders 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 5, 2014 It depends if you judge it over a whole decade or just a small period of the decade when a rider had his best spell.. I would judge it on the latter and in that case no British rider in the 80's come close to Michael Lee and Kenny Carter in my opinion...Lee won a world title and longtrack title in the decade so that alone put shine number 1 ...and he had a comeback year at Poole where he could have won a other title....... Carter for me was as fast as anybody I've seen at Hyde Road...I've said before that it's a north south divide as far as Carter is concerned...I saw him reguarly at Hyde Road, Halifax and Sheffield and he was tremendous and between 81 and 83 was possibly the best rider in the world with let alone Britain, and only injuries after that held him back To me no riders come close to Lee and Carter as the top 80's riders Great shout "Bruiser" those two were along way in front of the rest in my view from 81. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 7, 2014 I wish Peter Collins had been at his best in the '80's - he would have definitely been better that all of them. :approve: Discuss. i agree TWK. In my view the Collins of 76/77 was the greatest Brit of alltime. Lee had meetings in 83 where he woudl ahve beaten anyrider from any era, but over the whol season i don't think his record compares to PCs, he didn't actually win any of the major meetings in 83 and "only" the big one in 80. Collins in 78-80 was orld class, but not as good as those preceding years, and arguably in 80 had been overtaken by Lee and Penhall. Without the injury in last 80 he could well have come back to win another title, but would have been competing with lee, penhalland then of course the two great emerging Danes. WK PC and Lee should of been around for at least another five seasons at the top level but it wasn't to be.What frustrated me was that from 83 onwards the two Danes dominated until the the late 80s Ermolenko and Moran showed they were good anough to rock the boat.But in 83 Lee showed he could compete and beat the Danes and Carter too, both had good head to head records with both of them.PC after his Arm/ shoulder injury he was finished at the top level he was unfortunate because the 70s era was a damn site harder than the 80s. i'm not sure i agree that the 70s was that much harder than the 80s. in the 70s he was up against to alltime greats in mauger and olsen, lee and michanek a tad below, and then a host of very good riders in Simmons, Louis etc. but in the 80s he would have been up against two alltime greats in nielsen abnd gundersen, plus penhall and lee in some years, and then very good riders such as carter, moran, ermolenko etc. of course the 80s was noticeable for the premature loss from the sport of a large number of riders (Britain - Carter and Lee lost prematurely, Collins never the sanme after injury ; US lost Penhall and Sigalos,;aussie lost Sanders) - but then in the 70s you had Briggs career finished a few years earlier than it might have been, the tragic loss of Jannson etc. conlusion: i don't think there is much in it tbh, though it is obviously impossible to compare. the top 5 should be Jeremy Doncaster, Kelvin Tatum, Paul Thorp, Simon Wigg, Simon Cross as this was the last time Uk had won Gold at World team cup in the 80s. I always thought Steve Scofield was a good rider. i'm not sure if you are being serious here? On the chance that you are, can you explain why you woudl rate those riders ahead of the grand slam inning four from 1980 of Lee, Jessup, Collins and Morton? It depends if you judge it over a whole decade or just a small period of the decade when a rider had his best spell.. I would judge it on the latter and in that case no British rider in the 80's come close to Michael Lee and Kenny Carter in my opinion...Lee won a world title and longtrack title in the decade so that alone put shine number 1 ...and he had a comeback year at Poole where he could have won a other title....... Carter for me was as fast as anybody I've seen at Hyde Road...I've said before that it's a north south divide as far as Carter is concerned...I saw him reguarly at Hyde Road, Halifax and Sheffield and he was tremendous and between 81 and 83 was possibly the best rider in the world with let alone Britain, and only injuries after that held him back To me no riders come close to Lee and Carter as the top 80's riders On that criteria, Jessup would be the one exception (IMHO), as in 80 and 81 he was certainly good enough to win the world title - in my view he was the best rider in the world in 80, and would have probably made it back to back runners up finishes if not for the engine failures in the 81 world final (under a gp system i reckon he would have won in 80 and finished second in 81). That said, I agree with the two you mention as the top brits of the 80s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted April 7, 2014 Adams,Sigalos,Jessup,Sanders,Carter are all riders who could of won the WC but for some all different reasons didnt i would place DJ behind all of them named. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
