Maitland Speedway Anniversary

[BigFatDave 258]

With all due respect to Bill Buckley, how much research has he actually done on the subject...?

A very astute man, Bill Buckley, with a great knowledge of Speedway, which is as you'd expect from someone who owns his own Speedway Stadium and finances his own country's GP, whereas how many of our amateur historians on here simply rely on a collection of dubious anecdotes culled from the internet or publish fatuous commentary designed to grind their own personal axes and denigrate the real heroes of Speedway's past in order to self-aggrandise, rather than doing the on-the-ground research that's required?

Have you seen our plaque, Humphrey, or even travelled to Maitland? Oh so easy to pooh-pooh anything from the comfort of your own lounge-room.

Edited April 5, 2012 by BigFatDave

[olddon 7]

As we were saying....scroll down this page and read all about dear old Johnnie Hoskins...and read what it says about Maitland in December 1923.

 

http://www.speedway-...Years%201-5.pdf

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

For those who have not yet - are there any ? - read the comments about Johnnie Hoskins on the South African site which I linked. here's an edited clip of it:

"Johnny S. Hoskins

The history of speedway began in Australia, when the godfather of the sport, Johnny S. Hoskins, organised the first motorcycle races on a dirt oval track at West Maitland, near Sydney, in December 1923. This event has generally been accepted as the very first speedway meeting, even though it’s a proven fact, that the Americans had pioneered motorcycle races on oval tracks as early as in 1902."

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[Humphrey Appleby 13,955]

Have you seen our plaque, Humphrey, or even travelled to Maitland?

 

I have been to Maitland, but it was before the plaque was put up. Not that going there or reading a plaque proves anything historically anyway.

 

To be honest, I've never been completely in the 'speedway was invented at Maitland' camp because years ago I remember finding some old speedway books in the library that mentioned oval motorcycle racing in the early years of the 20th century, plus of course it seems fairly improbable that nobody had the idea to ride bikes around trotting ovals in the 40 years before Maitland.

 

I did assume the Maitland meeting had some characteristic elements that could be assumed to be the precursor of modern speedway, but the contemporary newspaper accounts dug out by Ross and others appear to suggest even that wasn't the case. That's not to denigrate Maitland's place in speedway history because right or wrongly, most speedway fans believe it was the birthplace of the sport, the racing is reasonably well documented, and it's the first place that the sport's most legendary promoter started promoting. That's arguably what sets it aside from other early venues, but I think it's important to try to establish the historical facts rather than believe legend. It's not because people wish to denigate Maitland or the undeniable contribution of Johnnie Hoskins in developing the modern day sport, but because it's part of the process of historical research.

[cyclone 943]

A very astute man, Bill Buckley, with a great knowledge of Speedway, which is as you'd expect from someone who owns his own Speedway Stadium and finances his own country's GP, whereas how many of our amateur historians on here simply rely on a collection of dubious anecdotes culled from the internet or publish fatuous commentary designed to grind their own personal axes and denigrate the real heroes of Speedway's past in order to self-aggrandise, rather than doing the on-the-ground research that's required?

Have you seen our plaque, Humphrey, or even travelled to Maitland? Oh so easy to pooh-pooh anything from the comfort of your own lounge-room.

 

As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?

 

I would be wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events.

 

For example the race that Peter Craven lost his life, Ian Hoskins, the Edinburgh Promoter later stated that Craven started off a 20 yard handicap.

 

This was incorrect as though it was intended to be the case, the crowd that evening voiced their displeasure at the proposed handicap, and all four riders started from the gate.

 

How do I know ? - well I was standing right behind the starting gate at the front of the crowd !

 

That Ian Hoskins got this wrong can be corroborated by various people that were present that evening, including Mike Hunter (current Director of Edinburgh Speedway) and Jim Henry (current Clerk of the Course, at Armadale).

 

Of course you might choose not to believe the word of "amateur" spectators

[kennylane 3]

As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?

 

I would be wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events.

 

For example the race that Peter Craven lost his life, Ian Hoskins, the Edinburgh Promoter later stated that Craven started off a 20 yard handicap.

 

This was incorrect as though it was intended to be the case, the crowd that evening voiced their displeasure at the proposed handicap, and all four riders started from the gate.

 

How do I know ? - well I was standing right behind the starting gate at the front of the crowd !

 

That Ian Hoskins got this wrong can be corroborated by various people that were present that evening, including Mike Hunter (current Director of Edinburgh Speedway) and Jim Henry (current Clerk of the Course, at Armadale).

 

Of course you might choose not to believe the word of "amateur" spectators

 

You're a bit off course. Edinburgh in the early 1960s when Peter Craven tragically died and Maitland in 1923 are a long way apart. I don't quite see what this has to do with the debate on the start of speedway in Australia in December 1923. A rather unusual parallel but I am sure BFD will give his response.

[BigFatDave 258]

You're a bit off course. Edinburgh in the early 1960s when Peter Craven tragically died and Maitland in 1923 are a long way apart. I don't quite see what this has to do with the debate on the start of speedway in Australia in December 1923. A rather unusual parallel but I am sure BFD will give his response.

It's just another red herring from the "Denigrate Johnnie Hoskins' Achievements (at any cost to their own personal credibility) Brigade", Kennylane, and should be treated as such.

I see it as the usual forum posting of someone who desperately wishes to be seen as 'In The Know". Who gives a stuff anyhow? As has been proven on this thread time after time, these people will argue Black's White in order to prove their own twisted agendas; they attempt to rewrite History to suit themselves and are not to be relied upon as a source of fact.

[cyclone 943]

You're a bit off course. Edinburgh in the early 1960s when Peter Craven tragically died and Maitland in 1923 are a long way apart. I don't quite see what this has to do with the debate on the start of speedway in Australia in December 1923. A rather unusual parallel but I am sure BFD will give his response.

 

I mentioned being wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events and cited an example.

 

Given I was responding to BFD implying that someone actively involved in Speedway (Bill Buckley) was likely know more about events in 1923 than the likes of Ross Garrigan, I assumed you would be able to follow the gist of my reply.

 

Obviously I was mistaken in your case.

[BigFatDave 258]

Cyclone, I wasn't implying anything; I was stating a fact. Now I see you're trying to denigrate Bill Buckley.

 

Obviously personal abuse is the preferred method of the Red (Herring) Brigade.

[cyclone 943]

It's just another red herring from the "Denigrate Johnnie Hoskins' Achievements (at any cost to their own personal credibility) Brigade", Kennylane, and should be treated as such.

I see it as the usual forum posting of someone who desperately wishes to be seen as 'In The Know". Who gives a stuff anyhow? As has been proven on this thread time after time, these people will argue Black's White in order to prove their own twisted agendas; they attempt to rewrite History to suit themselves and are not to be relied upon as a source of fact.

 

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

Edited April 5, 2012 by cyclone

[kennylane 3]

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

 

 

 

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

 

 

Yowieee!! A double-whammy. If Johnnie Hoskins is looking down he must be enjoying all this? Support for the Maitland speedway started theory: the recently provided South African site, the NZ Grand Prix programme, and a while back Peter Oakes in 'Speedway Star" are a good enough basis surely?

[cyclone 943]

Yowieee!! A double-whammy. If Johnnie Hoskins is looking down he must be enjoying all this? Support for the Maitland speedway started theory: the recently provided South African site, the NZ Grand Prix programme, and a while back Peter Oakes in 'Speedway Star" are a good enough basis surely?

 

 

Re Peter Oakes piece in S Star of 17/3/2012, I would not disagree with his opening paragraph:-

 

" The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whethe he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world "

 

Personally I place more credence on the contemporary evidence that Ross Garrigan has unearthed and referred to regarding motorcycling events in Australia in 1923 and earlier.

 

Of course it is up to the individual to judge how much detail they require before making up their mind one way or another.

 

Out of interest has anyone come across evidence that Johnny Hoskins publicly claimed to invent motorcycle Speedway ?

 

I am aware that others (including his son Ian) have made this assertion, but IIRC, JSH mentions in one of his books organising such events at West Maitland, but does not go as far as to claim to be inventor of the sport.

 

He may well be the Inventor, but if others wish to research other earlier avenues, why should their findings not be considered with an open mind ?

 

For instance the invention of the telephone is commonly recognised as by one of my countrymen, Alexander Graham Bell, but some would contest that American, Elisha Gray, made the first phone.

Edited April 5, 2012 by cyclone

[BigFatDave 258]

I take it you'd like to see the holes in their hands, Cyclone?

 

Quite why you continue to belittle anyone with the temerity to disagree with you escapes me: it must provide some personal satisfaction to you to be the only person marching in step.

[cyclone 943]

I take it you'd like to see the holes in their hands, Cyclone?

 

Quite why you continue to belittle anyone with the temerity to disagree with you escapes me: it must provide some personal satisfaction to you to be the only person marching in step.

 

Usual standard reply I see, plenty sarcasm, but lack of meaningful response when politely asked to provide facts.

 

I bow to The Red Herring Master

[BigFatDave 258]

Usual standard reply I see, plenty sarcasm, but lack of meaningful response when politely asked to provide facts.

 

I bow to The Red Herring Master

You keep introducing 'em, I'll keep bagging 'em, Cyclone - why should anyone even bother to choose to answer your constant carpings? Why don't you stop and smell the methanol for a change - Johnnie Hoskins is accepted by the vast majority of Speedway Fans as the Godfather of Modern Speedway - FACT.

 

The paucity of your argument becomes even more evident every time you post - you can't back up your argument so you try to turn your failings on to everyone else.

Edited April 6, 2012 by BigFatDave

[olddon 7]

You keep introducing 'em, I'll keep bagging 'em, Cyclone - why should anyone even bother to choose to answer your constant carpings? Why don't you stop and smell the methanol for a change - Johnnie Hoskins is accepted by the vast majority of Speedway Fans as the Godfather of Modern Speedway - FACT.

 

The paucity of your argument becomes even more evident every time you post - you can't back up your argument so you try to turn your failings on to everyone else.

 

I agree with this. No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way.

The South African website without doubt is a fine new source of reference in regard to Maitland in December 1923, and also on how Johnnie Hoskins was at the forefront when REAL speedway - not the High Beech shambles in the February - was brought to England in 1928.

It will take more time, perseverance and research on the part of the pro-Hoskins group to finally prove their point. But recent information and supportive writings show that the Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923 cause is now winning the recognition that it deserves.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT