The Know 221 Posted January 4, 2009 And it's certainly tempting to apply that particular bolt...!!! I guess it's topical having just listening to the dulcet tones of none other than our very own Nige and one of my first Speedway announcing heroes, the peerless Dave Lanning on Sky, to go with a Darts analogy... You see The Know, you chastise me for watching the SGP rounds from my settee - sorry to disappoint but I don't watch them at all.. I also don't watch the 'Premier League of Darts' but I sure as hell watch the Darts World Championship. The difference...?? Well, that's obvious, isn't it...!!! If you dont go to the gp or watch them on tv how do you know its not entertaining. Out of interest have you ever been to one of the old world finals ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 4, 2009 If you dont go to the gp or watch them on tv how do you know its not entertaining. Out of interest have you ever been to one of the old world finals ? Yes I went to World Finals at Wembley & Bradford, at Ullevi and even that apparently notorious one in Norden. An excellent weekend of drinking was had in northern Germany that year...!!! I have NEVER commented on the particular quality of racing in a GP - that's not my beef... But it's rather like chastising a devoted fan of Manchester United (someone like Blazeaway!!! ) for not going to see United play in a pre-season tournament... That fan may regard such friendly games as a waste of time... I don't tend to watch the GPs on TV because (1) I have little interest in them as they more often than not have little one-off excitement or value as events; (2) my real interest is, and always has been, in lower league and grass-roots Speedway; and (3) I am often too busy either going to Speedway here or writing for the various progs and publications I have commitments to.. And if we take Darts(as Parsloes mentions it)or Snooker for instance.They don't just have one game which would be very tense indeed.No,to try and make sure that the best person wins they have many games between the two opponents.More as the Finals progress i think.Which ensures really that the best Darts or Snooker player in the World wins.But Parsloes wants the Speedway world title to be decided on a bad or good piece of luck in a one day World Final Blimey, this is hard work...!! What are you on about iris..?? You know full well that the 16 riders in a World Final didn't just turn up on the day... Like Phil Taylor winning the Darts, they also had to negotiate qualifying rounds.. Indeed it's the GPs which, uniquely, allow people in them who've NOT had to qualify, who are just put in there...: even if they've tried to qualify and failed or failed to stay in the prerequisite top eight the year before!! And of course, if like Hans Andersen in 2004 your face doesn't fit and they leave you out, you can have the season of your life the next year but it matters not a jot coz 'politics' has frozen you out. That's not sport in my book...!!! Again though, no-one EVER responds to any of the arguments made by me (and plenty others...) about the special nature and special qualities of a one-off Final. The one-off Final is the stable format of the huge majority of sports, always has been and always will.. I WON'T drag out the stats again which show that the old World Speedway Final was dominated by a very small number of top riders for decades... It wasn't a lottery, decided by "a good piece of luck".. It was the TRUE test of greatness and more to the point, a fantastic, well-loved, massively supported event. I've been to two British GPs, BTW...: one at Cardiff and the original one in 1996 at Hackney. The only one, incidentally, where the World Champ was crowned on British soil since the GPs started. As things stand we'll NEVER see that happen again and that's a crying shame IMHO for GB Speedway... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,092 Posted January 5, 2009 Blimey, this is hard work...!! What are you on about iris..?? Quite simple really Parsloes.In essence, darts or snooker have lot's of games between the competitors to eliminate or at the very least lessen the chance of luck(good or bad)playing a role in deciding who becomes World Champ.The Speedway GP series does the same thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 Quite simple really Parsloes.In essence, darts or snooker have lot's of games between the competitors to eliminate or at the very least lessen the chance of luck(good or bad)playing a role in deciding who becomes World Champ.The Speedway GP series does the same thing. But the format of a Darts match, a Tennis match, a Boxing fight etc. are different in that they only ever involve two protagonists.. A Speedway (indiv.) championship has 16... So, yes, it would be inadequate as a sporting endeavour, in every respect, if Taylor vs. Barney yesterday had been decided over a single leg... Why, Henman could've won Wimbledon if he'd only had to win one game ! And though many a fight does end after one round, there are 12 three minutes rounds to negotiate to win that championship Boxing belt.. But all of these are SILL one-off Finals...!! Darts has its 'Premier League' but that competition carries none of the status and public interest of the big World Championship Final... A Speedway World Final can't be the best two just racing against each other 20 times... No, the essence of the sport is four riders in a race... But the 5-rides, meet each opponent once, top points scorer prevails worked for years and IS the fairest way to decide a champion... Outside of things like F1 and other similar motor sports, name a World Championship decided by the long route of multi-rounds as opposed to the one-off Final...!!?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blazeaway 1,501 Posted January 5, 2009 But the format of a Darts match, a Tennis match, a Boxing fight etc. are different in that they only ever involve two protagonists.. A Speedway (indiv.) championship has 16... So, yes, it would be inadequate as a sporting endeavour, in every respect, if Taylor vs. Barney yesterday had been decided over a single leg... Why, Henman could've won Wimbledon if he'd only had to win one game ! And though many a fight does end after one round, there are 12 three minutes rounds to negotiate to win that championship Boxing belt.. But all of these are SILL one-off Finals...!! Darts has its 'Premier League' but that competition carries none of the status and public interest of the big World Championship Final... A Speedway World Final can't be the best two just racing against each other 20 times... No, the essence of the sport is four riders in a race... But the 5-rides, meet each opponent once, top points scorer prevails worked for years and IS the fairest way to decide a champion... Outside of things like F1 and other similar motor sports, name a World Championship decided by the long route of multi-rounds as opposed to the one-off Final...!!?? Depends how you define champion I suppose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rico 210 Posted January 5, 2009 Outside of things like F1 and other similar motor sports, name a World Championship decided by the long route of multi-rounds as opposed to the one-off Final...!!?? Powerboating Ski-jumping Air racing Do you need any more ? Rico Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 Powerboating Ski-jumping Air racing Do you need any more ? Rico Er, well two of those ARE motor sports are they not..??!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 Depends how you define champion I suppose. Hmm, you have a problem with the word "Champion" being used to refer to Peter Collins, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Peter Craven, Erik Gundersen, Ole Olsen...; and Ronnie Moore..??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rico 210 Posted January 5, 2009 Er, well two of those ARE motor sports are they not..??!! Your question was phrased as "Outside of things like F1 and other similar motor sports". If you wished to exclude all Motor Sports then why didn't you ask the question "Outside of all motor sports...." ? Definitely a pattern though, Motor Sport allow the test to be over a number of events, no motor, the majority are one offs. Speedway is just fitting in with an accepted practice. Rico Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,092 Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) But the format of a Darts match, a Tennis match, a Boxing fight etc. are different in that they only ever involve two protagonists.. A Speedway (indiv.) championship has 16... So, yes, it would be inadequate as a sporting endeavour, in every respect, if Taylor vs. Barney yesterday had been decided over a single leg... Why, Henman could've won Wimbledon if he'd only had to win one game ! And though many a fight does end after one round, there are 12 three minutes rounds to negotiate to win that championship Boxing belt.. But all of these are SILL one-off Finals...!! Darts has its 'Premier League' but that competition carries none of the status and public interest of the big World Championship Final... A Speedway World Final can't be the best two just racing against each other 20 times... No, the essence of the sport is four riders in a race... But the 5-rides, meet each opponent once, top points scorer prevails worked for years and IS the fairest way to decide a champion... Outside of things like F1 and other similar motor sports, name a World Championship decided by the long route of multi-rounds as opposed to the one-off Final...!!?? : But you fail to understand the basic principle of darts,snooker and even tennis is they play enough games to eliminate a bit of bad luck producing a Champion.Boxing is another matter altogether and it shows you lack of understanding that you lump it in with the others.Not surprised by that though And the speedway GP series does the same thing.It gives the competitors enough heats to lessen the chance of one bad race or bad refereeing decision deciding the title.That is the basic principle behind it. Why the heck you bring in a Premier League into this god only knows.Speedway has had other competitions,but it is blooming obvious that they didn't carry the same status as the World Championship.Football also has another competition with teams from all continents involved but that also(not surprisingly)doesn't have the same status as the World Cup. And again why you ask about "outside of things like F! and other similar motor sports"!!!!!!!If you haven't noticed speedway is a blooming motor sport So why try to look at how they decide the World Champ in a boxing match is pretty pointless.Not surprised that is what you are trying to do Exactly Rico.Posted while i was replying to the bloke.But he ........... Edited January 5, 2009 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 It's clear that there are two views - but the fact is that the World Final offered (and delivered) something different to the season-long GP system. I accept we have the latter now, but I don't think it's acceptable that this has developed into such a closed shop. The very least that should be happening is that only the top eight can stay in it for next year; with eight positions up for grabs in qualifying. That gives real chances to the ambitious and the talented to break into what otherwise (and currently) looks like an 'old boys' network.. It would also make both the World Championship qualifying process and the GPs themselves a whole lot more interesting... To me, any championship in which one can be in it purely on the largesses of the organisers is NOT a proper one...: and that is a major flaw to all those arguments raised by the pro-GP brigade about "fairness"...!! Might have been nice too if anyone had ever bothered to find an argument against the idea that the WF tested (like an Olympic Final for example) the competitors in the white-hot cauldron of a one-off Final whilst the GPs smack of the LCD (for example when Loram won without, er, winning a single GP..)...: but no-one apparently could so there you go... BTW, iris you mis-read about the Premier League. I was referring to the Darts PL which is indeed very akin to the Speedway GP series in being a season-long version of an individual championship featuring the folk who contest the one-off World Championship...!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,092 Posted January 5, 2009 Didn't mis-read your comment at all.Speedway has had other individual competitions.The Daily Mirror Grand Prix and there was the other Champions thing with all the top riders in Denmark,Germany etc over a few legs.But it plainly not the World Championship(just like your Premier League example)so obviously doesn't hold the same status. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 Didn't mis-read your comment at all.Speedway has had other individual competitions.The Daily Mirror Grand Prix and there was the other Champions thing with all the top riders in Denmark,Germany etc over a few legs.But it plainly not the World Championship(just like your Premier League example)so obviously doesn't hold the same status. Ah ha...: so WHY didn't the Daily Mirror Grand Prix carry the same status as the World Final then..?? Surely according to your logic it should've been regarded as "better"..??!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,092 Posted January 5, 2009 Ah ha...: so WHY didn't the Daily Mirror Grand Prix carry the same status as the World Final then..?? Surely according to your logic it should've been regarded as "better"..??!!!! Because it wasn't the World Championship derrr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 5, 2009 Because it wasn't the World Championship derrr A rose by any other name and all that.... The argument - being argued generally by people who don't actually know that much about the old system (yourself excepted!!! ) - has been that the one-off World Final was horribly flawed, could be won by any old rider who "got lucky" (sic) on the day.... etc. And that it's much better to have a series of meetings spread over a longer period of time with the "aggregate" winner a fully deserved champ.. So, IF the World Final really was that pants, then back in 1976 when the GP series was first tried out and contained the World's elite, then surely public opinion would've declared it a fat better alternative and it would've replaced the old World Final..??!!! Didn't happen.. I'll remind you what did though... The winner of that inaugural GP series was Peter Collins...; who, er, "got lucky on the day" etc. in Katowice later that same year to win the WF too....!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
