2004 Permanent Wildcards Announced

[fatface 2,554]

The major point is that since SKY has covered GPs (ie since the series launched in 95)

 

I seem to remember that Sky didn't cover the SGP until a few years after it started. I think it was originally on other satellite channels, as was the World Final.

 

It was certainly Sky who covered the inaugral British Grand Prix from Hackney although I can't be certain for the other rounds that year.

 

Regardless of Kevin Meynell's selective memory, yes SKY have covered every GP since it was launched in 95. Be back tomorrow to discuss Kevin M's further points.

[Kevin Meynell 2]

yes SKY have covered every GP since it was launched in 95.

 

My memory may be failing, but I think the television rights were originally sold to a Danish company, with Sky taking some of their coverage. Again, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the early GPs were not shown live on Sky.

 

What is certain, is that BSI were not involved until 1999. Up to that point, the SGP went to illustrious venues like Wiener Neustadt, Abensburg and Hackney (even if it was described as London).

[fatface 2,554]

there has been a huge increase in the number of operating speedway tracks in Britain from 23 to 32.

 

Yes, and I still say that this was down to other factors beside the SGP. Unfortunately, none of us can prove it either way, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

TV coverage of the GPs since 95 has increased the overall consciousness of the sport's existence significantly. From say 86-95 if you weren't a speedway fan - you wouldn't even know it existed. And many who have comeback to the sport since SKY's TV coverage of the GPs have been reminded about the sport they once loved. Again, 23 clubs (1994), 32 clubs (2003). You cannot underestimate the interest TV can generate in a sport at all levels. Have you ever tried to get a game of tennis after Wimbledon?

And since BSI's involvment, our sport now achieves a much higher profile - even the Guardian have been known to give the sport some good coverage.

 

You must read the wrong papers, because the Daily Telegraph has always given the sport pretty good coverage.

 

That's why I said EVEN the Guardian. But you won't catch me out - you'll never get me to admit to buying the Torygraph :twisted:

 

The sport is back in some of the world's great stadiums - that's cause for celebration surely?

 

I am not for a moment suggesting that the World Championship does not have a higher profile than it did ten years, and yes it's largely held in better stadiums (although not all of them are better - Avesta, Hamar, Krsko to name but a few). Of course BSI have improved things, but you have to look at the bigger picture.

 

If you're only interested in the SGP, then what they're doing is fine. However, I think the vast majority of fans prefer league racing to which the SGP is incredibly disruptive, without actually bringing any extra fans through the turnstiles or otherwise improving revenue. Of course, you might reasonably argue that attendances would have fallen even further without the SGP, but that's something else that no-one can prove either way.

 

SGP does not interupt the PL. And the EL only really have themselves to blame. Over many years the top league has shrunk and shrunk, now they are totally reliant on a very small pool of riders. Poole alone have 4 GP riders. Rewind 20 years. The equivalent of Rickardsson, Adams, Dryml, Pedersen would be something like Lee, Sigalos, Knudsen, Shirra who would have been equally disrupted with World Champs, World Pairs, World Team and World Long Track commitments.

 

BSI have put together a modern World Championship which is exciting and appealling to new and old supporters. The BSPAs top competition ie. the EL has gradually become a laughing stock with guests, rider replacements, doubling up etc. That's their fault, not BSI's.

 

The real issue though, is that what you're currently seeing is a thin veneer. It is the local GP promoters that are taking all the financial risks and often losing money to allow BSI to be profitable. There is nothing wrong with BSI trying to make money, but local promoters will only be willing to take a killing for so long. That's why the Aussie GP didn't happen this season, and why there are question marks over the Slovenian, Norwegian and Polish GPs. Enjoy them while you can!

 

In the meantime, the British leagues have to put-up with all manner of disruption. For all the faults of the BSPA, it still generates most of the income in speedway, and the SGP would not be able to exist without it. A few of the very top riders could possibly survive on the Polish and Swedish leagues alone, but the middle-and-bottom order SGP riders still depend very heavily on British income.

 

I'm not suggesting to do away with the SGP, but BSI needs to recognise that no matter how badly-run the BEL is, it's own success is built on it.

 

The two are co-dependent. TV coverage for GPs opened the door for EL TV coverage, there is no doubt about that. And apart from sharing riders, GPs have little in common with the dreary presentation at most tracks.

 

Anyway, what is you want BSI to do? Step back and let the BSPA host the spectacular that is the EL as the sport's main showcase. Where you can use 50 rider during a season to win the league!

 

BSI have taken the World Championship and made it something very special again in a very short space of time.

 

As far as I can see, BSI have improved two things. They have taken the competition to a handful of prestigious venues (although at least five of the venues are not an improvement), and have put the competition on television. That's great, but at the same time the series has too many mediocre riders, and a combination of crap tracks and a questionable format have turned it into a lottery. I wouldn't disagree that things are better than they were ten years ago, but I still wouldn't say the competition was in the category of 'very special' yet.

 

Like it or not, in marketing and promotion terms they leave the BSPA miles behind in their tyre tracks.

 

It is much easier to promote ten events per year, than the 600+ that the BSPA members do (with less paid staff). Even then, the organisation of the SWC was pretty pathetic, and the Scandinavian GP a complete fiasco.

 

Agreed the Scandinavian GP was bad news. BSI acknowledged it. SWC - that's your opinion, many would disagree. But tens of thousands who attended GPs last year - including me - had a bloody good time. The ELRC in contrast was garbage - will the BSPA acknowledge it. To them it was just another day at the office.

[Kevin Meynell 2]

TV coverage of the GPs since 95 has increased the overall consciousness of the sport's existence significantly.

 

I never said it didn't, but I still say that other factors beside the SGP are responsible for the increase in number of tracks.

 

From say 86-95 if you weren't a speedway fan - you wouldn't even know it existed.

 

Not completely true. A few of the World Finals in that period were shown on BBC Grandstand, and without wishing to hark back to the 'good old days', most of them still drew more fans than any of the GPs do now.

 

You cannot underestimate the interest TV can generate in a sport at all levels.

 

I'm not disputing the impact of television. I dispute the impact that the involvement of BSI has had on increasing the number of tracks, which was your original premise.

 

SGP does not interupt the PL.

 

Well that's alright then!

 

And the EL only really have themselves to blame.

 

Yes it does, and BSI have taken advantage of its weakness. Well done to BSI for spotting the opportunity and taking it, but it doesn't mean that you have to agree with what they're doing in collusion with the FIM (who are supposed to work in the interests of all parties).

 

been equally disrupted with World Champs, World Pairs, World Team and World Long Track commitments.

 

I think you could legitimately argue that point when there were only six GPs (which is why that number was originally chosen), but not since the increase to nine/ten. Don't forget you also have the SWC which takes a whole week, and there are still the qualifying rounds as well (although not for much longer).

 

In addition, I don't ever remember a World Final being cancelled because of the incompetence of the organisers, and then re-arranged the following week over a full programme of BL fixtures.

 

The BSPAs top competition ie. the EL has gradually become a laughing stock with guests, rider replacements, doubling up etc. That's their fault, not BSI's.

 

No argument from me about that, but you're trying to compare apples and oranges. This said, I'm not blaming BSI for the failings of the BEL, but I do question how successful the SGP would be if the BEL ceased to exist.

 

The two are co-dependent.

 

Thank you! And would you consider that BSI is trying to co-exist with the BEL at the moment?

 

GPs have little in common with the dreary presentation at most tracks.

 

I don't actually think the GP presentation is that good, considering the amount of money and professional staff it can call upon, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

 

Anyway, what is you want BSI to do?

 

I would start by limiting the number of GPs during the European season to six, evenly spaced-out every 3 or 4 weeks. Any additional GPs should be held outside the European season, although I personally believe that more than ten is overkill.

 

I would also ask the FIM to account for the USD 1.1 million that BSI supposedly pay them for the rights, as no-one really knows where this is going (although it's alleged that the FIM pay the GP prize monies). Then I would look into the circumstances behind them signing (as reported) a 20-year extension to their original deal, as that is not in the interests of anyone but BSI.

 

Agreed the Scandinavian GP was bad news. BSI acknowledged it.

 

No, they passed the buck and blamed the local organisers (who were certainly not blameless), even though they were ultimately responsible as the series organiser. For a start, you have to question the lack of supervision earlier in the week, but by the Friday it was obvious to everyone there that the track was unrideable. Yet, they still opened the stadium the next day and tried to run the event.

 

SWC - that's your opinion, many would disagree.

 

I've not heard one good word about that event. The tracks were a disgrace, the ticketing was a shambles, and it was almost impossible to get any information from the official website.

 

But tens of thousands who attended GPs last year

 

There are really only three rounds that draw large crowds - the British, Polish and Scandinavian GPs getting around 25-30,000. I think the Czech, Danish, Swedish and other Polish GP are in the order of 15,000, Slovenia about 8,000, and Norway less than 5,000.

 

The British GP seems reasonably impressive until you realise there were nearly that number at the 1990 World Final in Bradford, and 50,000 at the Final the year before. In fact, even the 1991 and 1992 Finals managed to draw around 30,000 each.

 

I think this demonstrates that there has always been support for big speedway events if they're held in the right places, rather than in the middle of a field. Whilst I don't actually advocate a return to the one-off World Final, it does seem a little suspicious that the prime advocates of the GP system were the same people that allowed consecutive World Finals to be held at Pocking and Vojens.

 

The ELRC in contrast was garbage - will the BSPA acknowledge it.

 

Yes it was, and probably not.

[Jeff. 2]

But tens of thousands who attended GPs last year

 

There are really only three rounds that draw large crowds - the British, Polish and Scandinavian GPs getting around 25-30,000. I think the Czech, Danish, Swedish and other Polish GP are in the order of 15,000, Slovenia about 8,000, and Norway less than 5,000.  

 

The British GP seems reasonably impressive until you realise there were nearly that number at the 1990 World Final in Bradford, and 50,000 at the Final the year before. In fact, even the 1991 and 1992 Finals managed to draw around 30,000 each.

 

I think this demonstrates that there has always been support for big speedway events if they're held in the right places, rather than in the middle of a field. Whilst I don't actually advocate a return to the one-off World Final, it does seem a little suspicious that the prime advocates of the GP system were the same people that allowed consecutive World Finals to be held at Pocking and Vojens.

 

Kevin Wembley 1981 had 92,000 fans, Bradford 1985 had 37,000 fans, Bradford 1990 had 25,000 fans, Bradford GP 1997 had sub 10,000 fans. Do you notice a trend there. Of course we are still nowhere near the hey days of Wembley, and probably never will be again, but the decline has been halted and a significant improvement made. Do you really think if things had carried on as they were this would have happened

[Kevin Meynell 2]

Of course we are still nowhere near the hey days of Wembley, and probably never will be again, but the decline has been halted and a significant improvement made.

 

The pre-BSI SGP was undoubtedly run into the ground given that nobody had an overall responsibility for it. However, my point was that whilst 30,000 fans at a speedway event might seem impressive today, you were still getting bigger attendances only ten years ago.

 

I wouldn't dispute that BSI have brought 2-3 big venues onto the circuit, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the attendances of most of the GPs are not significantly higher than they were before BSI came along five years ago.

[fatface 2,554]

Of course we are still nowhere near the hey days of Wembley, and probably never will be again, but the decline has been halted and a significant improvement made.

 

The pre-BSI SGP was undoubtedly run into the ground given that nobody had an overall responsibility for it. However, my point was that whilst 30,000 fans at a speedway event might seem impressive today, you were still getting bigger attendances only ten years ago.

 

Hang on there. The 93-94 Finals must have attracted crowds of 15,000 max. Throw in the qualifying rounds - World Semis, Overseas etc. and you'd have say 40,000 max watching the World Championships. As for TV, we had a small highlights package of the 94 Final on Grandstand one week later.

 

Now, even by your conservative estimates, our World Championship is seen by 160,000 paying customers and is broadcast live to hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of others throught Europe and also shown in Australia. Sorry Kevin, but even your own figures don't back up your argument.

[Kevin Meynell 2]

Hang on there. The 93-94 Finals must have attracted crowds of 15,000 max.

 

Yes, because they were held stadiums with small capacities. I didn't go to the 1994 Final in Vojens, but the 1993 Final in Pocking was a sell-out, and could have sold far more tickets.

 

As for TV, we had a small highlights package of the 94 Final on Grandstand one week later.

 

Who would you say has the biggest viewing figures - Grandstand or Sky Sports?

 

Throw in the qualifying rounds - World Semis, Overseas etc. and you'd have say 40,000 max watching the World Championships. Now, even by your conservative estimates, our World Championship is seen by 160,000 paying customers

 

You accuse me of being selective, but then you do exactly the same. Aggregate attendances do not tell the whole story, because many fans will watch multiple rounds of the SGP. I suspect there are still only 40,000 fans that watch World Championship speedway, but a good percentage attend several rounds.

 

Once again though, you miss my point. I'm not arguing that a handful of the GPs are better attended, or even that they're watched by more viewers, but I dispute that BSI have created that market. I think it was always there, and anyone that had the vision (and financial backing) to rent out a large stadium and do the proper promotion would have got the same crowds.

 

As I've said previously, BSI have undoubtedly improved the SGP compared to what it was, but I don't think it's as good as people seem to think, and I also question their economic model. Time will tell I suppose!

 

Now, even by your conservative estimates

 

You surely don't believe that the quoted attendance figures are all paying customers? I heard that at one GP, only half the reported number of people actually paid to get in.

 

our World Championship is seen by 160,000 paying customers and is broadcast live to hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of others throught Europe and also shown in Australia.

 

And I would ask how many of those people have we seen through the turnstiles in Britain?

[Kevin Meynell 2]

our World Championship

 

It's long ceased to be 'our' World Championship ;-) The rights to it were 'sold' by the FIM in 1997.

[shazzybird 10]

Kev you know an awful lot of facts and figures, is this your real name your using or maybe you are a promotor or manager in disguise

 

Don't bite my head off.............Someone's loaded the gun........I'm just firing it lmao

[stevehone 3,430]

grass

[Kevin Meynell 2]

is this your real name your using or maybe you are a promotor or manager in disguise

 

Yes, it is my real name, and I think there are some people on this forum that have actually met me ;-) I have no connection with any promotion, nor with any particular interest group.

 

A lot of the information I quote is actually publicly available if you know where to look - from the FIM, Companies House, and so on. I've also got to know a few insiders over the years, who forward tidbits of information from time-to-time. Finally, once you're familiar with Bernie Ecclestone's F1 model, everything falls into place given that John Postlethwaite is a stated admirer of his methods.

 

I think it's important to point out that I don't actually have anything against BSI. To a certain extent, I admire the vision of John Postlethwaite (as BSI is basically his vehicle) to see the opportunities offered by the SGP, and raise the necessary finance to make it happen. In a sense, they do offer a glimpse of what's been lost in the sport during the past twenty years or so.

 

However, I think it has to be recognised that the SGP does not have the solid foundations that many seem to think. Furthermore, until BSI are able to run a self-sustaining competition, they should be working with, rather than against the national leagues; and I'm mostly referring to the BEL here.

[shazzybird 10]

Blimey .... wish I hadn't asked now :? a simply no would have done

[stevehone 3,430]

must be a politician

[Kevin Meynell 2]

must be a politician

 

God forbid that anyone should disagree with the gospel according to the Speedway Star!