Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[Nigel 38]

So who did open Odsal to Speedway then Norbold if it was not Johnny Hoskins

 

JH may have opened Odsal ...but not with his own money

[BigFatDave 258]

You miserable old git

Another brilliant contribution to the debate.

[iris123 20,994]

This has been a great debate but at the end of the day nothing has been proved or disproved.

I tend to disagree on that.But i guess Jack favours the Eddie Izzard "no flag,no country" view,only with plaques and speedway instead

[Nigel 38]

Another brilliant contribution to the debate.

 

wow what a statement...... dave I see your sense of humour is still intact

Edited October 30, 2011 by Nigel

[Nigel 38]

I tend to disagree on that.But i guess Jack favours the Eddie Izzard "no flag,no country" view,only with plaques and speedway instead

 

[Nigel 38]

The following has been passed on to me, it is not research of mine, but I offer it for the appraisal of the discerning folk following this saga.

 

While browsing through some back numbers of the Speedway Star I found this headline

 

"The men who started speedway,"

 

A full page, without a creditation, Paul Parish was the editor, so we will hold him accountable, The appeared article on 11/2/1966.

 

The article in brief , is saying that JHS is researching a new book assumably Speedway Walkabout, and he had to do a lot of research, he contacted the New South Wales Morning Herald in a plea for information [ so you see he was not relying on his memory!]

 

JHS is reported to have recieved a reply from Bill Crampton who rode in the first meeting.

 

Bills letter implies that Maitland resident Len Upfold, a member of the Hamilton motor cycle club, had a vision of motorcycles racing under lights.

 

Len approached JHS, with a view to motorcycles racing at the Maitland showground. JHS then invited the motor cycle club to the showground on a sunday morning, date not given to try out the track

 

Riders were Bill Crampton, Les Upfold, George Ross, Andy Eyre, Bill Cogan and Claude Rankin. reference is made to JHS starting on a Triumph. Riders were timed against the clock.

 

It was agreed that the following saturday these riders would race under lights at the showground with members of Maitland motor cycle club

 

Bill Crampton concludes his letter by saying the spectators were in favour of the motor cycles so negotiations were entered into with the Hamilton motorcycle club for them to appear on December 15 1923.

 

Bill states that he was 65 and his memory was as good as it was in 1923.

 

It would appear that the archives of the Maitland or the Hamilton motorcycle clubS could hold the clues to the true origins of speedway

 

Now we have another pre JHS visionary one Len Upfold!!

 

over to you guys and gals

[Nigel 38]

I also offer this for discussion.

 

The following article was taken from “The Motor Cycle” April 1923. Written by an Englishman who was racing in the USA 1922 note the date 1922. A similar article was published in "Motorcycling"

"Fascinating Dirt Track Racing"

“Exciting but not really dangerous sport---An American idea that England might imitate” As an Englishman in America, keenly interested in motor cycling, especially racing, I notice several of your correspondents seem to have mistaken the ideas about racing conditions in the USA. Saucer tracks are a thing of the past; they went out of vogue about 1915. The present day racing is conducted entirely on dirt tracks of half to one mile or sometimes 2 miles to the lap. They are to all intents and purposes unbanked; that is they are, on average only two to three feet higher on the outside than on the inside as they are used extensively for horse trotting races as well as for motorcycles and cars. The surface of a good track is of Clay, which is rolled and dragged, and usually has a cushion of softish earth on top. The tracks are generally surrounded by wooden fences inside and out. During 1922 I do not recollect having heard of one single race meet conducted on anything other than dirt tracks and most of them were half mile tracks. There is also a certain very limited amount of record breaking carried out on banked Board tracks of one mile or more to the lap, in the Los Angeles and San Francisco districts. (Evidence suggests that board track racing continued up to 1928.. NB) I have raced several times at Brooklands and last summer (1922) I raced in seven Half mile dirt track meets over here. The dirt track as an engine testing ground cannot compare with Brooklands. By taking big risks a man often beats a faster machine ridden by a more cautious rider. No one would ever win at Brooklands by riding the “turns” two feet from the inside. On a dirt track the going is often best right next to the inside fence and the more daring riders will slither and slide around just close to the fence as they can keep, also no fast machine can be ridden wide open around a half mile track; the machine would turn completely round and go down, though some of the best riders will slide all the way around the turn with the back wheel twelve inches further out than it should be. This sounds impossible but never the less it happens. To all intents and purposes one steers by sliding the back wheel and the peculiar nature of the track surface makes this very much easier than it appears. From a sporting point of view the half mile unbanked dirt track is better than any other form of racing except the T.T.. So long as there is a bank of soft earth between the riders and the fences to prevent some of them taking undue risks cornering, it is the most fascinating sport I have ever gone in for and provided one wears leather clothes one can come off any number of time without serious consequences to rider or machine. The writer would like to see half a dozen dirt tracks scattered over England. They are cheap to construct, the gate money would more than pay for them, and they would give a large number of private owners a chance of motor cycle racing in one of its most fascinating forms.

 

Englands first Speedway rider?

[kennylane 3]

The following has been passed on to me, it is not research of mine, but I offer it for the appraisal of the discerning folk following this saga.

 

While browsing through some back numbers of the Speedway Star I found this headline

 

"The men who started speedway,"

 

A full page, without a creditation, Paul Parish was the editor, so we will hold him accountable, The appeared article on 11/2/1966.

 

The article in brief , is saying that JHS is researching a new book assumably Speedway Walkabout, and he had to do a lot of research, he contacted the New South Wales Morning Herald in a plea for information [ so you see he was not relying on his memory!]

 

JHS is reported to have recieved a reply from Bill Crampton who rode in the first meeting.

 

Bills letter implies that Maitland resident Len Upfold, a member of the Hamilton motor cycle club, had a vision of motorcycles racing under lights.

 

Len approached JHS, with a view to motorcycles racing at the Maitland showground. JHS then invited the motor cycle club to the showground on a sunday morning, date not given to try out the track

 

Riders were Bill Crampton, Les Upfold, George Ross, Andy Eyre, Bill Cogan and Claude Rankin. reference is made to JHS starting on a Triumph. Riders were timed against the clock.

 

It was agreed that the following saturday these riders would race under lights at the showground with members of Maitland motor cycle club

 

Bill Crampton concludes his letter by saying the spectators were in favour of the motor cycles so negotiations were entered into with the Hamilton motorcycle club for them to appear on December 15 1923.

 

Bill states that he was 65 and his memory was as good as it was in 1923.

 

It would appear that the archives of the Maitland or the Hamilton motorcycle clubS could hold the clues to the true origins of speedway

 

Now we have another pre JHS visionary one Len Upfold!!

 

over to you guys and gals

 

You are in danger of disappearing up you know where by going round in circles! The Bill Crampton letter has already been up on this thread several pages ago!

Edited October 30, 2011 by kennylane

[kennylane 3]

I also offer this for discussion.

 

The following article was taken from “The Motor Cycle” April 1923. Written by an Englishman who was racing in the USA 1922 note the date 1922. A similar article was published in "Motorcycling"

"Fascinating Dirt Track Racing"

“Exciting but not really dangerous sport---An American idea that England might imitate” As an Englishman in America, keenly interested in motor cycling, especially racing, I notice several of your correspondents seem to have mistaken the ideas about racing conditions in the USA. Saucer tracks are a thing of the past; they went out of vogue about 1915. The present day racing is conducted entirely on dirt tracks of half to one mile or sometimes 2 miles to the lap. They are to all intents and purposes unbanked; that is they are, on average only two to three feet higher on the outside than on the inside as they are used extensively for horse trotting races as well as for motorcycles and cars. The surface of a good track is of Clay, which is rolled and dragged, and usually has a cushion of softish earth on top. The tracks are generally surrounded by wooden fences inside and out. During 1922 I do not recollect having heard of one single race meet conducted on anything other than dirt tracks and most of them were half mile tracks. There is also a certain very limited amount of record breaking carried out on banked Board tracks of one mile or more to the lap, in the Los Angeles and San Francisco districts. (Evidence suggests that board track racing continued up to 1928.. NB) I have raced several times at Brooklands and last summer (1922) I raced in seven Half mile dirt track meets over here. The dirt track as an engine testing ground cannot compare with Brooklands. By taking big risks a man often beats a faster machine ridden by a more cautious rider. No one would ever win at Brooklands by riding the “turns” two feet from the inside. On a dirt track the going is often best right next to the inside fence and the more daring riders will slither and slide around just close to the fence as they can keep, also no fast machine can be ridden wide open around a half mile track; the machine would turn completely round and go down, though some of the best riders will slide all the way around the turn with the back wheel twelve inches further out than it should be. This sounds impossible but never the less it happens. To all intents and purposes one steers by sliding the back wheel and the peculiar nature of the track surface makes this very much easier than it appears. From a sporting point of view the half mile unbanked dirt track is better than any other form of racing except the T.T.. So long as there is a bank of soft earth between the riders and the fences to prevent some of them taking undue risks cornering, it is the most fascinating sport I have ever gone in for and provided one wears leather clothes one can come off any number of time without serious consequences to rider or machine. The writer would like to see half a dozen dirt tracks scattered over England. They are cheap to construct, the gate money would more than pay for them, and they would give a large number of private owners a chance of motor cycle racing in one of its most fascinating forms.

 

Englands first Speedway rider?

 

That's a wodge of reading! Didn't they know about paragraphs in those day? The first English speedway rider - wasn't that Freddie Hore? Who was the Englishman who compiled this tirade of reading matter posted above?

[Nigel 38]

I realise that to many people John S Hoskins is a hero, Someone they hold in high esteem and when our heros are brought down to earth we react and distrust those who sully their image. The realisation that our heros are not all they are cracked up to be can bring deflation and disappointment. The American speedway superstar Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder was my exulted hero. When I discoverd some unsavory truths about his private life I felt let down, deflated and disappointed. I have never looked at him in the same light again.

[Nigel 38]

That's a wodge of reading! Didn't they know about paragraphs in those day? The first English speedway rider - wasn't that Freddie Hore? Who was the Englishman who compiled this tirade of reading matter posted above?

 

Hi Kennylane, Tirade is a bit strong? I have quoted as it was written. you are right much of the grammer in the early mags was iffy.

 

After much research I have yet to discover who the rider is, but I have not given up

Edited October 30, 2011 by Nigel

[olddon 7]

I realise that to many people John S Hoskins is a hero, Someone they hold in high esteem and when our heros are brought down to earth we react and distrust those who sully their image. The realisation that our heros are not all they are cracked up to be can bring deflation and disappointment. The American speedway superstar Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder was my exulted hero. When I discoverd some unsavory truths about his private life I felt let down, deflated and disappointed. I have never looked at him in the same light again.

Was it something 'Sprouts" Elder did at the first speedway meeting at Maitland on December 15 1923? Did he upset the sport's founder Johnnie Hoskins?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[Nigel 38]

You are in danger of disappearing up you know where by going round in circles! The Bill Crampton letter has already been up on this thread several pages ago!

 

Tut tut slap my wrists not paying attention again..... my profuse apologies.. I blame old age

 

what about Len Upfold?

 

I cant be Ar*** to read it all from the begining again

[Nigel 38]

Was it something 'Sprouts" Elder did at the first speedway meeting at Maitland on December 15 1923? Did he upset the sport's founder Johnnie Hoskins?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

As Mr Elder was still in America at the time it would have been difficult to upset John S Hoskins or the sports founder should there ever have been one.

[Ross Garrigan 2]

Let's be a bit serious here please. Can those who support the Ian Hoskins/Johnnie Hoskins version of the invention/start of speedway on December 15, 1923 at the Maitland Show Ground answer the following for me with a one word answer: -

 

Had motor cycles previously raced on a grass surfaced showground/sportsground in Australia as part of a carnival program as happened at that first appearance of motor cycles racing at the Maitland Show Ground in December 1923?

 

Should you answer "yes", then here is a supplementary question - how was the racing at Maitland on Decemebr 15, 1923 different to what had previously taken place?

 

Should you answer "no", there is no supplementary question.

 

Only those who are serious about this topic need bother to participate please. No name calling please, just a sensible debate for those interested in sorting this mess out.