Could Mike Bast Have Been A Force In World Speedway?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

Fortunately the modern GP system allows a rider the opportunity to try and qualify wherever he is from and wherever he plies his trade

 

Think you remain on a wind up... But please explain this comment. There are not even BRITISH qualifiers for the SGP and certainly aren't, for example, USA ones..! The notion that there's a world-wide set of 'qualifiers' for the current World Championship SGP series is total fantasy...!

[stratton 1,491]

Autrey had problems with the AMA in the late seventies, largely over how they ran their events to decide their 1 or 2 qualifiers from the American Final. Just 2 in an era that had Penhall, Autrey, Kelly Moran, Mike Bast, Bobby Schwartz etc. Prior to this though Americans had no means of qualifying for the world final unless they raced here. The World Championship up to the seventies was very much a closed shop, entry only allowed if you raced here, the BSPA took that even into the eighties denying PC entry in 1981 when he was the top BL performer the year before.

 

Fortunately the modern GP system allows a rider the opportunity to try and qualify wherever he is from and wherever he plies his trade

I do think Briggo was disgracefully stopped in 73 a entry ,and a few individual meetiings as well i know he missed the Silver Plume at Swindon.

 

surprised to read that - hardly any evidence to suggest that wouldve been at all likely

I am not convinced he would of conquered all of the big tracks to be a threat.At White city good aquipment [ec] looked out of his depth was talented no doubt.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Think you remain on a wind up... But please explain this comment. There are not even BRITISH qualifiers for the SGP and certainly aren't, for example, USA ones..! The notion that there's a world-wide set of 'qualifiers' for the current World Championship SGP series is total fantasy...!

 

I think he's on a wind up to the same extent that you are when you say that the old system was fairer for all riders

 

To clarify, I think there's two ways that riders can be unfairly excluded from participating. One is if the governing/administering body for the championship (in the old days FIM, now BSI) specifically excludes riders. So, up to the mid 70s US riders were excluded from competing, at various times Australsaian riders not riding in Britain were excluded from competing.

To my knowledge, all speedway nations are allowed to enter into the GP qualifiers. Perhaps you can advise me of an excluded country if I am wrong? So, on this basis, qualifying got the GP seems fairer.

 

Now, the other way riders can be excluded from qualifying is by their own natuional body. So, examples from the past of this include PEter Collins in 81, Autrey in 78/79, Larry Ross winning the 85 NZ championship but the sole Nz spot in the overseas final being given to (the vastly inferior) Dave Barge. Sam Nicoljesen getting the last Danish qualifying spot in 86, but Tommy Knudsen (who was struggling with injuty and missed the cut) then being seeded through at his expense. And of course, under the GP it is still up to national bodies to decide how to award their own nations spots. So, under neither system was there a completely fair and transparent qualification system for all. But, this is not the fault of either WC or GP systems (although governing bodies could perhaps dictate how countries conduct qualifying for their places), but of respective nation's governing bodies.

 

Agree or disagree Parsloes?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

I disagree fundamentally that there's a qualification system suffient in scope in the CURRENT system for it to warrant being called a fair World Championship.

A proper World Championship does not have guaranteed slots for an elite few. All need to qualify. You can go on for ever and a day about the old system, it's the CURRENT system which, if we care about the sport, needs to be looked at now. And it is utter fantasy to claim that riders from all over the world can easily qualify for an SGP series.

 

Rather like those who defend the Royal Family by saying it's good for tourism, those who seek to defend the current SGP series by quoting the case of Sam Nicoljesen from 25 years ago are showing a bankrupcy in their arguments. Try DEFENDING the current system against the charge that it's based far too much on protecting those in it, rather than building a confident system where all with merit can achieve; and then those of us who are sceptical would have something to consider..

[oldace 1,678]

I disagree fundamentally that there's a qualification system suffient in scope in the CURRENT system for it to warrant being called a fair World Championship.

A proper World Championship does not have guaranteed slots for an elite few. All need to qualify. You can go on for ever and a day about the old system, it's the CURRENT system which, if we care about the sport, needs to be looked at now. And it is utter fantasy to claim that riders from all over the world can easily qualify for an SGP series.

 

Rather like those who defend the Royal Family by saying it's good for tourism, those who seek to defend the current SGP series by quoting the case of Sam Nicoljesen from 25 years ago are showing a bankrupcy in their arguments. Try DEFENDING the current system against the charge that it's based far too much on protecting those in it, rather than building a confident system where all with merit can achieve; and then those of us who are sceptical would have something to consider..

 

I dont think I or anyone suggested it is easy to qualify, in reality those pursing the qualifying competition route are chasing 3 places, that said they are in the main chasing them without the current best 16 in the world in their path.

 

I don't fundamentally disagree with you that the SGP currently is in no way perfect, the qualification process could be improved. Where I do disagree with you is your assertion that the old system was fairer to all when it clearly wasn't. What is certain though is however the riders ended up there the SGP guarantees a worthy world champion, a rider who proved he was the best all season long, not a rider who had a one off brilliant night.

 

The truth is probably no system will please everyone but basing Cardiff attendance against current league track averages, lets say 1500 is the league average, then currently Cardiff if attracting 25 times the average track attendence. In 1981 average attendence would be 4000? meaning Wembleys 72,000 was 18 times the national average. I suspect I have erred on the high side of current attendance and the low side of the past which seems to indicate people in general are more in favour of the SGP, it has the attention of the less partisan supporter.

[stratton 1,491]

I disagree fundamentally that there's a qualification system suffient in scope in the CURRENT system for it to warrant being called a fair World Championship.

A proper World Championship does not have guaranteed slots for an elite few. All need to qualify. You can go on for ever and a day about the old system, it's the CURRENT system which, if we care about the sport, needs to be looked at now. And it is utter fantasy to claim that riders from all over the world can easily qualify for an SGP series.

 

Rather like those who defend the Royal Family by saying it's good for tourism, those who seek to defend the current SGP series by quoting the case of Sam Nicoljesen from 25 years ago are showing a bankrupcy in their arguments. Try DEFENDING the current system against the charge that it's based far too much on protecting those in it, rather than building a confident system where all with merit can achieve; and then those of us who are sceptical would have something to consider..

Just see a interview on the bbc website with Barry Hearn the snooker supremo saying how i feel.Refreshing really he said he dosent mind if he Upsets a few as long as everyone has a chance to enter every tournament.He said the days of the same 16 Just guaranteed to be in every tournament has gone.If you dont play regular you within 6 months will drop out the elite 16 .Therefore whoever you are and reputation you will have to QUALIFY .He says the game is evolving and there are new stars on the horizon but he said if good anough a 55 year old Steve Davis can attempt to play in every tournament if he wishes.Maybe a thought for speedway the FAIREST way in my view.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Just see a interview on the bbc website with Barry Hearn the snooker supremo saying how i feel.Refreshing really he said he dosent mind if he Upsets a few as long as everyone has a chance to enter every tournament.He said the days of the same 16 Just guaranteed to be in every tournament has gone.If you dont play regular you within 6 months will drop out the elite 16 .Therefore whoever you are and reputation you will have to QUALIFY .He says the game is evolving and there are new stars on the horizon but he said if good anough a 55 year old Steve Davis can attempt to play in every tournament if he wishes.Maybe a thought for speedway the FAIREST way in my view.

 

apart from the pemanent wildcard spots, isn't it very much the same system as the GP (i.e. top x riders based on performance stay in the series without the need for additional qualifying).

I'd suggest the risk of engine failure or injury playing a significant part in the outcome is significantly less in snooker than in speedway, hence why I feel speedway has the need to retain at least some of the wildcard spots to cover riders who potentially miss out due to these reasons.

Additionally, one bad meeting can ruin a riders qualifying hopes in speedway, whereas in snooker due to the number of tournaments, this is not the case. Ideally, in speedway there would be some sort of qualifying series to reduce the impact of luck/one off day, however I can't see that this would be financially viable.

[chunky 6,103]

Just see a interview on the bbc website with Barry Hearn the snooker supremo saying how i feel.Refreshing really he said he dosent mind if he Upsets a few as long as everyone has a chance to enter every tournament.He said the days of the same 16 Just guaranteed to be in every tournament has gone.If you dont play regular you within 6 months will drop out the elite 16 .

 

That sounds very strange, particularly in light of his ideas as far as darts is concerned. The PDC is now more of a closed shop than it has ever been, and it is clear that certain individuals are very much favoured over others...

 

Steve

[stratton 1,491]

[/b]

 

That sounds very strange, particularly in light of his ideas as far as darts is concerned. The PDC is now more of a closed shop than it has ever been, and it is clear that certain individuals are very much favoured over others...

 

Steve

Basically Chunky it used to be if you were in the 16 at the cut off that was it for a year. Now so many events on there are loads of ranking points available,meaning the top 16 changes monthly.So come april Osullivan who is provisionally 14 at mo might have to qualify come the W.C.

[oldace 1,678]

Think you remain on a wind up... But please explain this comment. There are not even BRITISH qualifiers for the SGP and certainly aren't, for example, USA ones..! The notion that there's a world-wide set of 'qualifiers' for the current World Championship SGP series is total fantasy...!

 

Sorry didn't see this one!!!

 

Ryan Fisher of the USA has been in GP qualifiers for at least the last two years.

 

James Wright, Ben Barker, Eddie Kennet, Chris Harris, Danny King, Simon Stead all were in last years qualifiers.

 

The qualifying process started with 80 riders from all over the world, over 5 rounds again staged all over the world.

 

Actually I dont think there was a nation that races speedway who didn't have a competitor, Argentina, Hungary, Slovenia, Germany, The Ukraine, Italy, The USA were all represented

 

These are not high profile events hence you probably didn'y know they existed but the riders are getting the chance, just that there are no Brits good enough to take it!!!

Edited January 19, 2012 by oldace

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

Sorry didn't see this one!!!

 

Ryan Fisher of the USA has been in GP qualifiers for at least the last two years.

 

James Wright, Ben Barker, Eddie Kennet, Chris Harris, Danny King, Simon Stead all were in last years qualifiers.

 

The qualifying process started with 80 riders from all over the world, over 5 rounds again staged all over the world.

 

Actually I dont think there was a nation that races speedway who didn't have a competitor, Argentina, Hungary, Slovenia, Germany, The Ukraine, Italy, The USA were all represented

 

These are not high profile events hence you probably didn'y know they existed but the riders are getting the chance, just that there are no Brits good enough to take it!!!

 

I didn't say that some riders from these nations hadn't entered qualifying, I said there was no national qualification process... In the past (sorry for the 'P' word again!) the British Final was one stage on the way to further (international)World Championship qualifiers, now the winner or highest positioned rider not already in it, can look forward to what, er, a basically meaningless one-off 'wild card' position at Cardiff..

[fatface 2,554]

A proper World Championship does not have guaranteed slots for an elite few.

Dead right. FIFA World Cup? Absolutely farcical - hosts and defending champions are automatically granted a place. IAAF World Athletics Championships? Drivel - each defending gold medallist automatically qualifies. Formula One World Championship? Meaningless - all the top drivers are chosen by the top teams. Rugby World Cup? Utter nonsense - all top nations are all seeded. Grand Slam Tennis and Golf? What a joke - all the world's top ranked players don't have to go through qualifying.

[waiheke1 4,295]

to be pedeantic, I don't believe the holders fo the football world cup are seeded anymore (just the hosts). But, plenty of other sports you could add to that list, cricket springs to mind. I'd suggest there are very, very few sports (if any) in which every participant in the world is given equal opprtunity at qualifying - hence no sports have "proper" world championships?

 

Parsloes - I guess the question is does (or should ) BSI have the right to dictate to national federations how they select their qualifiers?

Personally, I'd be happy to see a system where the number of "seeded" riders which national federations could be capped at the greater of 1 spot or 50% of their total allocation (rounded down), the remainder to be determined by placings in the national championship. (so for example, if Britain has 5 places, then the BSPA could select two riders to "seed" into qualifying, the remianing three slots would go to the top pace getters in the British Final, excluding those already in the series).

Potential issue though is for nations where the national championship is not held prior to the qualifying meetings starting? And does this actually improve the qualifying process any?

 

Also - don't Australia have a national qualifying process,a dn Troy Batchelor is already out?

[chunky 6,103]

Basically Chunky it used to be if you were in the 16 at the cut off that was it for a year. Now so many events on there are loads of ranking points available,meaning the top 16 changes monthly.So come april Osullivan who is provisionally 14 at mo might have to qualify come the W.C.

 

That's all well and good, but what I'm saying is that the PDC runs very differently. Even though there are now a total of 128 tour cards, it's basically a closed shop, with all the players that Barry Hearn wants.

 

Steve

[stratton 1,491]

to be pedeantic, I don't believe the holders fo the football world cup are seeded anymore (just the hosts). But, plenty of other sports you could add to that list, cricket springs to mind. I'd suggest there are very, very few sports (if any) in which every participant in the world is given equal opprtunity at qualifying - hence no sports have "proper" world championships?

 

Parsloes - I guess the question is does (or should ) BSI have the right to dictate to national federations how they select their qualifiers?

Personally, I'd be happy to see a system where the number of "seeded" riders which national federations could be capped at the greater of 1 spot or 50% of their total allocation (rounded down), the remainder to be determined by placings in the national championship. (so for example, if Britain has 5 places, then the BSPA could select two riders to "seed" into qualifying, the remianing three slots would go to the top pace getters in the British Final, excluding those already in the series).

Potential issue though is for nations where the national championship is not held prior to the qualifying meetings starting? And does this actually improve the qualifying process any?

 

Also - don't Australia have a national qualifying process,a dn Troy Batchelor is already out?

If you could have your time again Waihekeaces1 are you glad you see the 1off finals?.Or do you wish you had seen the Briggoes [ ect ] in this format .? I moan but i dont mind the g.ps i should hate the old format really .Because my favourites Crump, Autrey E Boocock Wilson Ashby were not done any favours over the years in it ,injury unlucky [ect ] suppose they were the rules.

 

That's all well and good, but what I'm saying is that the PDC runs very differently. Even though there are now a total of 128 tour cards, it's basically a closed shop, with all the players that Barry Hearn wants.

 

Steve

I am not keen on Hearn really but i wouldnt say snooker is a closed shop now.What i think would be better if they had less tournaments and had better prize money in the ones they run.Saying that Hearn says the bread and butter players are earning a hell of alot more.Stewart Bingham is a great [ ex ] of that always has been good now he is playing more he has just won his first event as a pro.