2013 Best Ever Gp Line Up?

[oldace 1,678]

head -bashed - brick wall

 

lets go back to a one off world final and have it at Peterborough and have Buckowski world champion, that appears to be your method.

 

the gp is a far fairer system to decide world champion. it makes sure the best are there, and also determines theseasons best not just one night.

 

didnt Bjarne win a gp once? imagine him as world champ because of 1 good night!

 

But apparently that is what sport is all about, having a world champion who is not very good, rather than one who is proven to be the best over an entire season.

[lucifer sam 3,960]

You must remember that back in the seventies the East European tracks were alien to anything the western riders were used to and it made the Poles seem miles better than they really were. Rather like Exeter used to be over here, very mediocre riders could appear world beaters round the county ground but not anywhere else, if there had been a world final at Exeter in the mid 80s and seeded 5 home riders it is not inconceivable that one would have won, it wouldnt make them world class though

 

So how come the Poles did much better than Great Britain in the World Cup during the 1960s - not just in Poland, but other countries too. Many the Poles were better than you give them credit for.

 

Mid 80s at Exeter? So you're saying Colin Cook or Alan Rivett could have been World Champion? Give over. And was Katowice Szczakiel's home track??? I thought he came from Opole.

 

Szczakiel is obviously a far better rider than a lot of people give him credit for. It's a shame so many have an arrogant attitude of "Well he never rode for a British League club, so he can't be any good."

 

All the best

Rob

[oldace 1,678]

So how come the Poles did much better than Great Britain in the World Cup during the 1960s - not just in Poland, but other countries too. Many the Poles were better than you give them credit for.

 

Mid 80s at Exeter? So you're saying Colin Cook or Alan Rivett could have been World Champion? Give over. And was Katowice Szczakiel's home track??? I thought he came from Opole.

 

Szczakiel is obviously a far better rider than a lot of people give him credit for. It's a shame so many have an arrogant attitude of "Well he never rode for a British League club, so he can't be any good."

 

All the best

Rob

 

Twice in the 60s the Poles finished ahead of GB when the final wasn't in Poland and not once in the seventies

 

No matter what spin you try to put on it the Poles, outside of their own country (with a few exceptions, Plech. Jancarz etc) were really not that great until the fall of communism and free movement, equally competing in Poland always lowered the standard of thw westerners so on home soil they could, and invariably did, beat the best

Edited December 5, 2012 by oldace

[lucifer sam 3,960]

Twice in the 60s the Poles finished ahead of GB when the final wasn't in Poland and not once in the seventies

 

Keep trying!!!!!

 

The Poles won the World Team Cup in the 1960s OUTSIDE of their own country... we didn't, even borrowing the likes of Briggs, Moore and Mauger. That's the point I was making. I didn't mention the seventies, just the sixties...

 

I've had a bit of a google about and found an interesting statistic. The head-to-head between Mauger and Szczakiel between 1971 and 1973.... Mauger 7, Szczakiel 6. That's a fine record against the best rider in the world at the time.

 

All the best

Rob

[oldace 1,678]

The Poles won the World Team Cup in the 1960s OUTSIDE of their own country... we didn't, even borrowing the likes of Briggs, Moore and Mauger. That's the point I was making. I didn't mention the seventies, just the sixties...

 

I've had a bit of a google about and found an interesting statistic. The head-to-head between Mauger and Szczakiel between 1971 and 1973.... Mauger 7, Szczakiel 6. That's a fine record against the best rider in the world at the time.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Where did those races take place though, I would hazard a guess Szcackiel's wins were all behind the iron curtain?

[lucifer sam 3,960]

Where did those races take place though, I would hazard a guess Szcackiel's wins were all behind the iron curtain?

 

I don't know why you've got an obsession on races behind the Iron Curtain being so difficult. The western riders may have been intimidated to begin with, but then Mauger winning in 1970 and the Brits winning the WTC in '71 in Poland altered the situation. By the time Szczakiel won in '73, the westerners already knew they could go to Poland and win.

 

Szczakiel would have had very little "home" advantage at Katowice (he rode for Opole), but he simply proved to the best rider on the day. Remember again he didn't beat Mauger once that day... he did it twice. Almost all the big names of the day were in the '73 final, but Szczakiel went out and beat almost all of them. He was the best rider on that particular day.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 5, 2012 by lucifer sam

[oldace 1,678]

I don't know why you've got an obsession on races behind the Iron Curtain being so difficult. The western riders may have been intimidated to begin with, but then Mauger winning in 1970 and the Brits winning the WTC in '71 in Poland altered the situation. By the time Szczakiel won in '73, the westerners already knew they could go to Poland and win.

 

Szczakiel would have had very little "home" advantage at Katowice (he rode for Opole), but he simply proved to the best rider on the day. Remember again he didn't beat Mauger once that day... he did it twice. Almost all the big names of the day were in the '73 final, but Szczakiel went out and beat almost all of them. He was the best rider on that particular day.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Indeed they did Rob, but racing in Poland was even up to the late 80s, a great leveller vetween the East and West.

 

In 1970 in Wroclaw 2 poles on Rostrum, same in 1973 in Katowice, no rostrum 1976 (Plech was 5th) and 1 rostrum place in 1979.

 

The 4 finals in Poland in the seventies had 5 of the 12 rostrum places occupied by Poles

 

Out of the other 6 finals of that decade how many of the 18 rostrum places did the Poles occupy?

 

I will give you a clue, it is less than 1

Edited December 5, 2012 by oldace

[Mike.Butler 601]

it is well known egon muller had the norden track prepared to his liking in 1983 and look at the result...so i certainly don't under-estimate the advantage the poles did have whilst riding at home back then...its all about familiarity..same apples these days..look at expectations of team gb riding at kng's lynn against when riding abroad...

[Gearhead 31]

 

 

 

Within a few posts you have completely changed your view.

 

Earlier you were adament that a substandard rider shouldn't be there on the strength of Nationality as it is unfair on genuine world class riders

 

Now you think that is what sport should be about

 

Make your mind up man

 

In my option MJJ is also far more worthy than Woffy of that GP place but do find White Knight contradicts himself in a sense because in 1973 you had a one off Final with the unpredictability and excitement etc with a suprise winner which he applauds but then it was the exact race format that MJJ failed the quaify for the GPs

[oldace 1,678]

In my option MJJ is also far more worthy than Woffy of that GP place but do find White Knight contradicts himself in a sense because in 1973 you had a one off Final with the unpredictability and excitement etc with a suprise winner which he applauds but then it was the exact race format that MJJ failed the quaify for the GPs

 

But even worse is that in 1973 we had a winner who didn't even qualify but that was great

 

Now one of Ians criticisms is the lack of qualifying into the GPs, although he has gone quiet on that one since it was shown to be nonsense

[The White Knight 9,039]

So we shall hear no more from you about the playoffs next year WK.

 

You've made your feelings quite clear regarding the subject of the best 'over a season' being worthy winners, or the best 'on the night'.

 

Play Offs are wrong - everybody knows my views by now BWitcher - THATS why I have been quiet. I have NOT changed my views on that either. They are unfair. :)

 

 

Within a few posts you have completely changed your view.

 

Earlier you were adament that a substandard rider shouldn't be there on the strength of Nationality as it is unfair on genuine world class riders

 

Now you think that is what sport should be about

 

Make your mind up man

 

I see no contradiction - Woofinden should NOT be in the GP end of, neither should MJJ (as I stated - I only used him as an example) in my book as neither qualified - but that is the way Speedway is these days. No the wonder Crowds are falling - Speedway is pushing credibility beyond belief.

 

People ask WHY is Speedway failing? - well ridiculous Rules like selecting for the GP series on grounds of Nationality and not Qualification, Play Offs, Double Points, Jokers etc. DO NOT HELP as far as credibility goes.

 

People, in general, are NOT mugs. They know when they are being ripped off. Some of us, like me at the moment, are prepared to put up with all the chicanary that goes on because we love to watch four Riders belting around a Track. The problem is a tremendous amount of people are put off the Sport because of the aforementioned stupid Rules.

 

Granted in these times of austerity 'Cuts' the Sport is also feeling the backlash of the Financial times we are living through, that too will undoubtedly have a effect. This alone is bad enough without discouraging folk by contriving Results.

Edited December 6, 2012 by The White Knight

[oldace 1,678]

Play Offs are wrong - everybody knows my views by now BWitcher - THATS why I have been quiet. I have NOT changed my views on that either. They are unfair. :)

 

 

 

 

I see no contradiction - Woofinden should NOT be in the GP end of, neither should MJJ (as I stated - I only used him as an example) in my book as neither qualified - but that is the way Speedway is these days. No the wonder Crowds are falling - Speedway is pushing credibility beyond belief.

 

People ask WHY is Speedway failing? - well ridiculous Rules like selecting for the GP series on grounds of Nationality and not Qualification, Play Offs, Double Points, Jokers etc. DO NOT HELP as far as credibility goes.

 

People, in general, are NOT mugs. They know when they are being ripped off. Some of us, like me at the moment, are prepared to put up with all the chicanary that goes on because we love to watch four Riders belting around a Track. The problem is a tremendous amount of people are put off the Sport because of the aforementioned stupid Rules.

 

Granted in these times of austerity 'Cuts' the Sport is also feeling the backlash of the Financial times we are living through, that too will undoubtedly have a effect. This alone is bad enough without discouraging folk by contriving Results.

 

You see no contradiction? You have long argued that it was good for an underdog to win and you have in the past used 1973 as an example of unpredicability and the underdog coming out on top.

 

Now I might be being silly but please explain the difference between Szackiels presence in the 1973 world final (what the sport is all about according to you) and Woffindens presence in the 2013 SGP.

[The White Knight 9,039]

You see no contradiction? You have long argued that it was good for an underdog to win and you have in the past used 1973 as an example of unpredicability and the underdog coming out on top.

 

Now I might be being silly but please explain the difference between Szackiels presence in the 1973 world final (what the sport is all about according to you) and Woffindens presence in the 2013 SGP.

 

Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think.

 

Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!!

[oldace 1,678]

Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think.

 

Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!!

 

Do you want to research that statement a little bit?

 

Or to save you the trouble, no he didnt, along with the other 4 Poles in the final they were seeded to draw a crowd

 

Not quite game set and match then!!!!!

Edited December 6, 2012 by oldace

[The White Knight 9,039]

Do you want to research that statement a little bit?

 

Or to save you the trouble, no he didnt, along with the other 4 Poles in the final they were seeded to draw a crowd

 

Not quite game set and match then!!!!!

 

 

Thank you for pointing this out to me oldace - I did not know that.

 

IF you are right about this - then Jerzy Sczakiel was undeservedly in the Final. The fact that, if as you say, he was allocated a place then, in no way invalidates my arguments about Qualification - if anything it re-enforces it. Selection is no way to get to a World Final/ Grand Prix Series. In BOTH cases - IT IS WRONG.