Suggested One-off World Final Return

[The White Knight 9,039]

 

we've had this debate before. Firstly, I'm not sure Mike Lee is good as an example, because simply he was, in the nicest possible way, a freak - probably the most naturally gifted rider of all time - and as such not representative of a general situation.

BUT... if Robert Lambert as a 16 year old this year had averaged 9 in the Elite league as Lee did in 1976 in the British League, he would 100% without a doubt have been included in the 2015 GP series.

Similarly,had the GP series been in effect in the 70s, Lee would have had a very good shot of ghaving been included in the 77 series, - if not it would have been a season later in 78. There's an argument of course that it would have been better for Lee if success had not come so early.

Note also that Emil finished on the podium of the GP series as a 19 year old, the same age as Lee when he made his first rostrum appearance, and younger than the likes of Peter Collins. And of course, we've seen teenagers such as Zmaralik win one off GPs. So frankly, I don't think your argument stacks up.

How many more would have done so - had they had the chance of qualifying?

 

The truth is that nowadays the vast majority of Speedway Riders are denied the chance to be top of the tree in their chosen Sport because of the Selection System used in the GP Series.

Edited December 28, 2014 by The White Knight

[waiheke1 4,295]

 

 

Well I, for one, do not think that the Riders are of a "higher standard these days". :nono:

 

I can't think of a single sport which isn't more professional now than in the 70s (in terms of the sportspeople, not the administration!). I'd include speedway in that. The result (in my view) is that the general standard in all sports has risen. In speedway, this would specifically relate to the equipment and fitness of riders which I think are indisputable, and overall ability which is certainly subject to more debate.

Certainly when you get to GP level, riders preparation levels are far superior to in the past - most would have say three bikes specifically for GPS, wheras in the past riders outside the very top echelon would maybe have jut one "special" bike. Overall, I'd say it's harder to make an instant impact than in the past.

Snooker. Although the automatic qualification for the finals is decided on the previous year's rankings, the qualification for the other places goes on during the same year. And I believe even the automatic places based on the previous year is being seriously curtailed now.

the issue with a similar approach for speedway would be that for riders to really compete at the GP level, they need time to prepare and arrange sponsors, plan their schedules etc. If you had the qualifiers for the "other places" at the start of the new season rather than in the previous season, these riders would come in at a serious disadvantage.

To go back to Henry W's query, is there any sport where all qualification happens in the same year as the World final (i.e. no seeding based on prior year perfromances)?

[fatface 2,588]

Completely agree with the above post. I think there is often far too much sentimentality over the old system. I have a decent enough grasp of the sport going back to the 1970s and let's be honest, how many great World Finals were there from 1970-1994?

 

Some of the racing in say the last five years of the GP series, particularly from Poland, New Zealand and Sweden has been far superior to much of what we saw in World Finals 70-94.

 

As a side issue. I'm sure there are plenty of sports where it is possible to win a World Championships in your first year. In theory, I could take up the 100m in 2016, run a super fast time, get picked for Team GB and win the Olympic 100m gold. All good in theory, but in reality, utterly impossible. Just as it would be for speedway -such is the high standard of professionalism in elite sport. If a rider is talented enough and highly dedicated, they will get there soon enough.

[BOBBATH 467]

Ain't gonna happen-I loved the one-off World Final, crazy results because of home track advantage and also it got degraded in later years e.g. Jerzy Szczakiel as World Champ-gimme a break!! Also Fred Williams on home track - gimme a break. If it had been held at Newport in the mid sixties maybe Alby Golden ,Dick Bradley or Peter Vandenberg would have been World Champ. Having said all that I reckon the current system is better but should anyone win it without actually winning a meeting? e.g. Mark Loram.. Anyway I've lost interest to hell with it

[Guest]

Ain't gonna happen-I loved the one-off World Final, crazy results because of home track advantage and also it got degraded in later years e.g. Jerzy Szczakiel as World Champ-gimme a break!! Also Fred Williams on home track - gimme a break. If it had been held at Newport in the mid sixties maybe Alby Golden ,Dick Bradley or Peter Vandenberg would have been World Champ. Having said all that I reckon the current system is better but should anyone win it without actually winning a meeting? e.g. Mark Loram.. Anyway I've lost interest to hell with it

 

 

Suggested One-off World Final Return

I agree with the world championship comment. It isn't going to happen. But find the comment re Jerzy Szackiel not to my liking. Research shows that he was a good class rider - much of the bias agains him IMO stems from the Dave Lanning TV commentary about that world championship. Have you ever checked out Jerzy Szackiel's career as a Polish international rider? Sadly, thanks to Mr Lanning criticism of his world championship is destined to carry on seemingly forever - thanks to Mr Lanning!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

 

Quote::::As a measure of Szczakeil's skill as a rider, between 1971 and 1973 he raced Ivan Mauger 13 times - and won 6, including beating him twice in the 1973 World Final.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest

[customhouseregular 1,651]

I appreciate I am an old "stick in the mud" but using the principle..."If it aint broke don't fix it", we should never have moved from the pre 1995 system. It worked.

Wembley 1981...92,000, Cardiff 2014...45,000(ish).

Terenzano had a capacity of 4,000 but staged GP rounds.

Back in the day every track staged qualifying rounds...they were well attended.

In Britain we had the British Final then maybe the Nordic British or European etc. all of which drew good crowds.

I wager a Wembley Final was better anticipated than most GP rounds.

Riders from every country that staged competitive speedway entered the competition so why should it be different now?.

OK..different eras I know but as I have said before, My last World Final was Wembley 1981 and my first GP was Cardiff 2014. I know which was better but honestly, are the powers that be ever going to sanction a return to the old format!.

It is worth remembering that post 1995 unless one travels abroad, we get to see so many GP riders maybe once a year. Pre 1995 we could maybe see top riders in WC rounds, Tests, International open meetings etc.. In Britain we are now starved of top-level speedway which is contributing to the sport's decline.

One can not live in the past but one can learn from it.

[The White Knight 9,039]

I appreciate I am an old "stick in the mud" but using the principle..."If it aint broke don't fix it", we should never have moved from the pre 1995 system. It worked.

Wembley 1981...92,000, Cardiff 2014...45,000(ish).

Terenzano had a capacity of 4,000 but staged GP rounds.

Back in the day every track staged qualifying rounds...they were well attended.

In Britain we had the British Final then maybe the Nordic British or European etc. all of which drew good crowds.

I wager a Wembley Final was better anticipated than most GP rounds.

Riders from every country that staged competitive speedway entered the competition so why should it be different now?.

OK..different eras I know but as I have said before, My last World Final was Wembley 1981 and my first GP was Cardiff 2014. I know which was better but honestly, are the powers that be ever going to sanction a return to the old format!.

It is worth remembering that post 1995 unless one travels abroad, we get to see so many GP riders maybe once a year. Pre 1995 we could maybe see top riders in WC rounds, Tests, International open meetings etc.. In Britain we are now starved of top-level speedway which is contributing to the sport's decline.

One can not live in the past but one can learn from it.

In the days of the 'one off' World Final - we did not have an outside Company taking all of the money out of British Speedway either.

[MattK 3,447]

How many more would have done so - had they had the chance of qualifying?

 

The truth is that nowadays the vast majority of Speedway Riders are denied the chance to be top of the tree in their chosen Sport because of the Selection System used in the GP Series.

 

Which riders precisely haven't had the chance to qualify?

 

All these British riders were in the GP Challenge for the 2015 GPs:

 

Craig Cook

Lewis Bridger

Chris Harris

Richard Lawson

Kyle Howarth

Daniel King

Richie Worrall

[Guest]

This is an interesting thread but I just wonder: would other countries want to change the world championship qualifying format?

Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

Ain't gonna happen-I loved the one-off World Final, crazy results because of home track advantage and also it got degraded in later years e.g. Jerzy Szczakiel as World Champ-gimme a break!! Also Fred Williams on home track - gimme a break. If it had been held at Newport in the mid sixties maybe Alby Golden ,Dick Bradley or Peter Vandenberg would have been World Champ. Having said all that I reckon the current system is better but should anyone win it without actually winning a meeting? e.g. Mark Loram.. Anyway I've lost interest to hell with it

There were extremely few "crazy results". Indeed quite possibly '73 was the only one.

The vast majority of champions appeared at least one other time on the rostrum and riders like Briggs, Mauger, Olsen & Fundin had numerous rostrum finishes in addition to their multiple crowns..

The World Final tested the mettle of the very best in a way the multi-round series format never can. To win in the white hot atmosphere of the World Final took a very special rider. For riders to do it multiple times like those four just mentioned, showed they were truly exceptional. If it was a lottery they'd have been a lot more champs than there were!

And more than that it was a fantastically exciting night!! And isn't that what sport is meant to be about (especially our sport!): excitement!

[fatface 2,588]

In the days of the 'one off' World Final - we did not have an outside Company taking all of the money out of British Speedway either.

Shame then that the promoters did sod-all with that money then. Did any of them actually invest in their facilities and trying to move with the times?

[Guest]

Shame then that the promoters did sod-all with that money then. Did any of them actually invest in their facilities and trying to move with the times?

 

In most cases it's not for promoters to use their money to improve stadium facilities. The majority are just tenants - they would have to negotiate with the stadium owners, then if work went ahead, pay an increased rental. But why should promoters do that...many only stay for a few seasons, then a new group takes over the promotional rights.

[waiheke1 4,295]

I appreciate I am an old "stick in the mud" but using the principle..."If it aint broke don't fix it", we should never have moved from the pre 1995 system. It worked.

Wembley 1981...92,000, Cardiff 2014...45,000(ish).

Terenzano had a capacity of 4,000 but staged GP rounds.

Back in the day every track staged qualifying rounds...they were well attended.

In Britain we had the British Final then maybe the Nordic British or European etc. all of which drew good crowds.

I wager a Wembley Final was better anticipated than most GP rounds.

Riders from every country that staged competitive speedway entered the competition so why should it be different now?.

OK..different eras I know but as I have said before, My last World Final was Wembley 1981 and my first GP was Cardiff 2014. I know which was better but honestly, are the powers that be ever going to sanction a return to the old format!.

It is worth remembering that post 1995 unless one travels abroad, we get to see so many GP riders maybe once a year. Pre 1995 we could maybe see top riders in WC rounds, Tests, International open meetings etc.. In Britain we are now starved of top-level speedway which is contributing to the sport's decline.

One can not live in the past but one can learn from it.

Wembley 81 was the last truly great world final. However, it wasn’t 92000 (i think it was around 71000?). and of course by 95 wembley was no longer available. So the issue wasn’t truly there in 81, but it was quite different by 95. How many world finals in between 82-94 exceeded the 45000 Cardiff generates? Odsal never did, and while ODsal was an excellent race track, it hardly compares with the Millenium stadium as a venue. Still a big improvement stadium wise on the likes of Norden which also hosted world finals.

As for your other points.

Britain would get a world final at best every four year, as opposed to a GP every year. We still have the british final. So we miss the overseas/commonwealth final which was annual, and the inter-continental/European final, which would be held in the UK every 4 years or so. So yes, Britian is missing out on around 0.5 world championship meetings per year BUT of course speedway fans now get to see 12 GP meetings live on TV.

As for internationals, while the GP series may have contributed by removing some Friday/Saturday dates, the reality is that these were no longer commecrically viable towards the end, or able to be fitted into riders schedules due to their other domestic leagues – much simpler when all the top riders were Britain based.

So really I think the only way the GP has been to the detriment of British speedway is removal of a number of Friday/Saturday dates from the calendar. The main issue (IMHO) has been the establishment of rival leagues in Poland and Sweden, as well as the failure of speedway governing bodies to invest in long term infrastructure (stadiums, training tracks) during the peak years.

 

So, while I agree that no GP is ever likelt to re-create the magic of the 81 Wembley final, overallthe product which has resulted is far superior (in terms of racing, quality of field and finding a worthy winner) system to the old one, which much as I love it, had had it’s day.

 

In most cases it's not for promoters to use their money to improve stadium facilities. The majority are just tenants - they would have to negotiate with the stadium owners, then if work went ahead, pay an increased rental. But why should promoters do that...many only stay for a few seasons, then a new group takes over the promotional rights.

which of course was Matt K's point. What is the difference between an outside company (BSI) taking profits from the sport, and individual promoters benefitting from a world final payday and then taking the money out of the sport?

How many more would have done so - had they had the chance of qualifying?

 

The truth is that nowadays the vast majority of Speedway Riders are denied the chance to be top of the tree in their chosen Sport because of the Selection System used in the GP Series.

which world class teenager is being denied a chance of qualifying for the G series. Or what rider ?

Reality is, it is probably easier to finish top three through the GP challenge to qualify for the GP series than it was to finish top 11 in the inter-continental final in the old days.

[fatface 2,588]

I appreciate I am an old "stick in the mud" but using the principle..."If it aint broke don't fix it", we should never have moved from the pre 1995 system. It worked.

Wembley 1981...92,000, Cardiff 2014...45,000(ish).

Terenzano had a capacity of 4,000 but staged GP rounds.

Back in the day every track staged qualifying rounds...they were well attended.

In Britain we had the British Final then maybe the Nordic British or European etc. all of which drew good crowds.

I wager a Wembley Final was better anticipated than most GP rounds.

Riders from every country that staged competitive speedway entered the competition so why should it be different now?.

OK..different eras I know but as I have said before, My last World Final was Wembley 1981 and my first GP was Cardiff 2014. I know which was better but honestly, are the powers that be ever going to sanction a return to the old format!.

It is worth remembering that post 1995 unless one travels abroad, we get to see so many GP riders maybe once a year. Pre 1995 we could maybe see top riders in WC rounds, Tests, International open meetings etc.. In Britain we are now starved of top-level speedway which is contributing to the sport's decline.

One can not live in the past but one can learn from it.

I could not disagree more. By 1994 our world championship was broken to anyone but the utterly deluded. 1981 was the last great occasion, but even then I think you are being rose-tinted. Penhall's races v Olsen and Knudsen were classics, but it wasn't brilliant racing all night. I also don't believe it was a sell out, a crowd of 75k is more accurate. But I digress, quite simply our World Final had become a very anti-climatic event in pretty average arenas in front of crowds closer to 20k. To suggest we should have simply

ploughed on regardless is plain daft. I have no doubt had we taken that route and interest had continued to dwindle, we would have had the sad spectacle of seeing the World Final at Poole or King's Lynn.

[Guest]

What is the difference between an outside company (BSI) taking profits from the sport, and individual promoters benefitting from a world final payday and then taking the money out of the sport?

 

When the world championship final "profits" are shared out on this basis, how many "cuts" at international would there be for participating countries?