The White Knight 9,039 Posted December 21, 2014 Getting in to the Christmas Panto spirit...OH NO you CAN'T!. Got it in one CHR. :rofl: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted December 21, 2014 I get the feeling CHR and WK are morphing in to the Two Ronnies. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted December 21, 2014 I get the feeling CHR and WK are morphing in to the Two Ronnies. ................. and it's 'goodnight from him'. :rofl: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted December 21, 2014 ................. and it's 'goodnight from him'. :rofl: Stop it...people will start talking!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted December 21, 2014 A brilliant crowd-puller, Carter's last meeting, if I recall, saw him struggle in the meeting and only win a run-off to navigate a world semi at his home track. Maybe that memory tarnishes what he achieved as a speedway rider alone. He clearly had off-track problems and seemed less hungry on it. I went to that meeting. British Semi at Odsal. It was easily the worst I had ever seen Kenny Carter ride. A few days later, the reason became quite apparent. I also tend to think that his time for winning the World Title had probably just passed. But I still think he would have been a huge contender in 85. In many ways it was a final that was there for the taking. On the day, both Gundersen and Nielsen had bad rides, Ermolenko was very inexperienced and even Kai Niemi went pretty close. Kenny was still very much a top line rider. Had he reached the final, no-one would have had more time to practice around Odsal than he. He might even had done a Muller and made them 'all look stooooopid' For me, he was genuinely unlucky. Some say he was reckless. I thought he was hard and fast, but never reckless. Both times he broke his leg could be put down to bad luck. In 84 he was hit by a trailing rider and in 85 he came off due to atrocious track conditions. Sadly for him, both crashes resulted in bad injuries. He may have won the title in those years, he may not. But no-one can deny he would have been a serious contender. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 21, 2014 It's amazing how many unbeatable, dominant riders there were according to Sidney. The more he says that, the more he actually strengthens the argument that I and E I Addio have put forward. Sidney, it's very simple. Take the top 10 riders from the 80's, put them in the format it is now and they would end up with similar averages to the current top 10. Nielsen at his best would be higher, but that would mean other members of the top 10 would be lower. Likewise, that the current top 10, put them in a format as was from early 80's, you'd have a number of 10pters, and the rest 9+. It's maths, it can't be argued against. Not FACT though is it ? forget figures numbers go by your eye and memory.Forget averages figures,gates,stats,are you telling me Nielsen/Gundersen would not do well now ? you tell me.Also Mauger averaged 11.74 but i still did not think he was better than Briggs overall in his career, forget averages, stats.At this moment in time i would say there are 16 plus top class riders in the 60s,70s,80s there was at least 30 plus who could hold there own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 21, 2014 OH YES I CAN!!! :party: :party: As said, quite simply you can't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted December 21, 2014 i PREFERRED TO WATCH BRIGGS OVER MAUGER ANY DAY, BUT YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH MAUGER'S RECORD. i PREFERRED TO WATCH BRIGGS OVER MAUGER ANY DAY, BUT YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH MAUGER'S RECORD. Sorry about the caps...pressed wrong button. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) Not FACT though is it ? forget figures numbers go by your eye and memory.Forget averages figures,gates,stats,are you telling me Nielsen/Gundersen would not do well now ? you tell me.Also Mauger averaged 11.74 but i still did not think he was better than Briggs overall in his career, forget averages, stats.At this moment in time i would say there are 16 plus top class riders in the 60s,70s,80s there was at least 30 plus who could hold there own. Yes it is Fact. Eye and memory isn't fact. You can't forget averages, you can't forget stats. They are not subjective, but a representation of what your your eye is seeing. You're seeing someone win races regularly.. rarely if ever come last. That's represented in their average. Why do you think there were 30 odd top class riders? Quite simply because you saw 30 odd winning most of their races on a regular basis. Why was that? Quite simply because they weren't racing against each other as often as they do now. Take those 30 odd riders, put them into a format such as the Polish or Swedish League.. the 30th one would be a 7pt guy. If that is all you saw week in week out, you wouldn't be classing him as a top class rider. Even take the same 30 and put them in an EL format, the difference would be even more paramount. If you want evidence of this, take a look when the leagues were merged in 95 and 96. There were countless riders averaging 9+. You had riders like Charles Ermolenko averaging 8+. Had he rode his entire career in such a format he'd be viewed as being a bordering on top rider.. but once the format changed and the league shrank again, riders such as that went back down to 5-6pt men. Edited December 21, 2014 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted December 21, 2014 i PREFERRED TO WATCH BRIGGS OVER MAUGER ANY DAY, BUT YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH MAUGER'S RECORD. Sorry about the caps...pressed wrong button. OH NO YOU DIDN'T!!! :rofl: OOOPS!! Sorry. I can't get out of the Panto mode. I think today's win at Newcastle might have helped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 21, 2014 i PREFERRED TO WATCH BRIGGS OVER MAUGER ANY DAY, BUT YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH MAUGER'S RECORD. Sorry about the caps...pressed wrong button. Big shout Regular, and you are right again Ivan's record is immense also which is forgotten he won six longtrack titles as well and lost a title to Jerzy Briggo,Mirac/ Ivan all heroes in my book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted December 21, 2014 If West Ham beat Chelsea and Arsenal over the Christmas period I shall be in permanent Panto mode. Big shout Regular, and you are right again Ivan's record is immense also which is forgotten he won six longtrack titles as well and lost a title to Jerzy Briggo,Mirac/ Ivan all heroes in my book. Was it not 3 Long Tack and 6 Speedway?. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 21, 2014 Yes it is Fact. Eye and memory isn't fact. You can't forget averages, you can't forget stats. They are not subjective, but a representation of what your your eye is seeing. You're seeing someone win races regularly.. rarely if ever come last. That's represented in their average. Why do you think there were 30 odd top class riders? Quite simply because you saw 30 odd winning most of their races on a regular basis. Why was that? Quite simply because they weren't racing against each other as often as they do now. Take those 30 odd riders, put them into a format such as the Polish or Swedish League.. the 30th one would be a 7pt guy. If that is all you saw week in week out, you wouldn't be classing him as a top class rider. Even take the same 30 and put them in an EL format, the difference would be even more paramount. If you want evidence of this, take a look when the leagues were merged in 95 and 96. There were countless riders averaging 9+. You had riders like Charles Ermolenko averaging 8+. Had he rode his entire career in such a format he'd be viewed as being a bordering on top rider.. but once the format changed and the league shrank again, riders such as that went back down to 5-6pt men. 95/96 was to put it bluntly the poorest example ever not to worry.Put it simply for you Witcher, Mauger,Briggs,Boocock bros) Airey,Ashby, KIlby, Wilson,Moore,Betts,Louis,Lee,Sanders,PC, Morton, Autrey,Penhall, Moran broths) Simmons, Crump,and i have missed a few please tell me that was a pretty good list forget stats were they good or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted December 21, 2014 Not good my friend...absolute topdrawer all of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 21, 2014 95/96 was to put it bluntly the poorest example ever not to worry.Put it simply for you Witcher, Mauger,Briggs,Boocock bros) Airey,Ashby, KIlby, Wilson,Moore,Betts,Louis,Lee,Sanders,PC, Morton, Autrey,Penhall, Moran broths) Simmons, Crump,and i have missed a few please tell me that was a pretty good list forget stats were they good or not. No, 95 and 96 is the most comparable example. What season did those you list all race against each other? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
