mdmc82 2,878 Posted April 16, 2015 Should be no facility. Bet he rides in Poland Sunday too. If he is able to ride in Poland then should be no facility Mon unless he's reported for withholding his services to Lakeside Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,845 Posted April 16, 2015 Fair enough taking his place in the GP if he is injured. The acid test will be if he then rides in Poland on Sunday and "aggravates" the injury and cant take his place at Wolves. Under no circumstances should a facility be allowed in that scenario If Lakeside are denied a facility the people you are hurting most are the Wolves fans who won't want to pay £18 to see a PL six pointer riding at No1 and the Wolves promotion who would lose gate money because GP riders will always put more on the gate than a PL 6pointer. To a lesser extent the Lakeside promotion would be affected because any chance of a point would be greatly reduced, and the one person unaffected by lack of facility would be the rider himself. If riders don't appear without good reason then they should be the ones to pay the price, not the fans or the promotions, especially the opposing promotions.. I guess the post-dated medical certificate is already in JC's hands?! Not yet . He's going to get one of Matt Fords spares and tippex THJ's name out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted April 16, 2015 If Lakeside are denied a facility the people you are hurting most are the Wolves fans who won't want to pay £18 to see a PL six pointer riding at No1 and the Wolves promotion who would lose gate money because GP riders will always put more on the gate than a PL 6pointer. To a lesser extent the Lakeside promotion would be affected because any chance of a point would be greatly reduced, and the one person unaffected by lack of facility would be the rider himself. If riders don't appear without good reason then they should be the ones to pay the price, not the fans or the promotions, especially the opposing promotions.. Come on now E I... you're digging a bit here aren't you? What next? Oh, we haven't got a very good team this year, its not fair on the track we're visiting, so we'll just track a couple of stronger riders instead. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,845 Posted April 16, 2015 Come on now E I... you're digging a bit here aren't you? What next? Oh, we haven't got a very good team this year, its not fair on the track we're visiting, so we'll just track a couple of stronger riders instead. If there is no genuine injury, who should pay the price? The rider or the Wolves fans ? If a 6-pointer were put in the forum would be full of complaints. I Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted April 16, 2015 If there is no genuine injury, who should pay the price? The rider or the Wolves fans ? If a 6-pointer were put in the forum would be full of complaints. I No it wouldn't as for once rules would have followed and the sport shows some credibility. If he rides on Sunday in Poland and doesn't wish to ride on Monday, then he is withholding his services and should be suspended accordingly. Lakeside can then use Doyle as a guest and nobody is upset, as you seem worried about. What SHOULDN'T be allowed to happen is him skip Monday and then simply walk back in on Friday. So, your fears are unjustified if the rules are followed. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liam 376 Posted April 16, 2015 Let's wait and see if he rides sunday first. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,845 Posted April 16, 2015 One of the things you have overlooked is whether he rides in Sweden on Tuesday. I am the first to agree that it looks bad when a rider rides in Poland Sunday, misses GB on Monday then rides in Sweden on Tuesday, and its difficult to escape the conclusion that some of them have been pulling a fast one in the past, so I am with you there. The difficulty as I see it is that if you have a doctors certificate certifying a rider was fit to ride in Poland but aggravated the injury do you say the doctor is lying ? We know it goes on but from a pragmatic point of view the SCB is governed by the ACU, who are in turn affiliated to the FIM and there is no way that a national organisation like the ACU, let alone an international body like the FIM are going to say doctors reports should be ignored.. Lets put it another way round. If a rider has a relatively minor injury but keeps quiet about it and then says he is missing riding in England because it was an old injury that was aggravated in Poland, then what do you do? I don't see how you can have a rule that says if you ride in Poland you have to ride in GB or get a ban, irrespective of what Doctors say.about the riders fitness. The only way round this sort of thing as I see it is to have certain FIM approved doctors , known to be well qualified and reliable who have to examine riders but I can't really see that happening for a variety of reasons including cost and logistics. . Even if it did, if a rider says he is in pain the doctor pretty much has to go along with it.. This sort of thing has been going on in various forms in various sports probably forever. I say that as a general principle not specific to AJ because we still don't know the position there. Anyway we'll have to wait and see a) if he rides in Poland, what score he achieves if he does ride, and c) whether he rides in Sweden. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skidder1 7,637 Posted April 16, 2015 One of the things you have overlooked is whether he rides in Sweden on Tuesday. I am the first to agree that it looks bad when a rider rides in Poland Sunday, misses GB on Monday then rides in Sweden on Tuesday, and its difficult to escape the conclusion that some of them have been pulling a fast one in the past, so I am with you there. The difficulty as I see it is that if you have a doctors certificate certifying a rider was fit to ride in Poland but aggravated the injury do you say the doctor is lying ? We know it goes on but from a pragmatic point of view the SCB is governed by the ACU, who are in turn affiliated to the FIM and there is no way that a national organisation like the ACU, let alone an international body like the FIM are going to say doctors reports should be ignored.. Lets put it another way round. If a rider has a relatively minor injury but keeps quiet about it and then says he is missing riding in England because it was an old injury that was aggravated in Poland, then what do you do? I don't see how you can have a rule that says if you ride in Poland you have to ride in GB or get a ban, irrespective of what Doctors say.about the riders fitness. The only way round this sort of thing as I see it is to have certain FIM approved doctors , known to be well qualified and reliable who have to examine riders but I can't really see that happening for a variety of reasons including cost and logistics. . Even if it did, if a rider says he is in pain the doctor pretty much has to go along with it.. This sort of thing has been going on in various forms in various sports probably forever. I say that as a general principle not specific to AJ because we still don't know the position there. Anyway we'll have to wait and see a) if he rides in Poland, what score he achieves if he does ride, and c) whether he rides in Sweden. I didn't think the Swedish league started til May?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Some good points on here ....and ones that shows how hard it is to run Speedway in the uk .....The balance between trying to stick to the rules and make sure a good crowd comes in is a tricky one ... on one hand we don't want AJ to take the mickey and maybe he should be replaced by a pl 6 point rider but if that happens thou Wolves might get a easy win it will no doubt have an effect on there crowd and I would say that Wolves would rather face Lakeside with Doyle as money must come first . I guess we are going to have to wait intill what AJ Does before we send the lynch mob in thou . Edited April 16, 2015 by orion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 0 Posted April 16, 2015 Wolves want to win! If they lose at home to a cheating team they'll get no crowd the week after! It's simple, if he rides Sunday then the sick note becomes void as by riding he's self certified he's fit. Let's wait and see anyway, he might not ride Sunday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TonyE 822 Posted April 16, 2015 He may not even complete all his GP rides on Saturday! We are getting ahead of ourselves here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liam 376 Posted April 16, 2015 Surely rightly or wrongly he could ride sunday then say he's aggraveted the injury and get signed off the meeting on Monday? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Surely rightly or wrongly he could ride sunday then say he's aggraveted the injury and get signed off the meeting on Monday? Spot on.. that's what I said earlier today ...Just say on Monday Morning that Doyle is going to replaced him . Edited April 16, 2015 by orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,845 Posted April 16, 2015 Wolves want to win! If they lose at home to a cheating team they'll get no crowd the week after! It's simple, if he rides Sunday then the sick note becomes void as by riding he's self certified he's fit. Let's wait and see anyway, he might not ride Sunday. It's not simple. There is no rule in existence that says a bona fide sick note can become void. As there is no specific rule, who takes responsibility to over-rule the doctor? What would be the response in the rest of speedwáy, the rest of motorcycle sport and the rest of sport in general if British speedwáy decided medical reports can be over-ruled ? If the BSPA can over-rule a doctors report on this occasion what authority does a track doctor have to withdraw an injured rider if the rider/his team manager /Sky want him to ride? Either doctors reports count or they don't . You can't pick and choose which ones you want to rely on. As I said before dodgy medical reports have been around speedwáy and other sports for years. Maybe it's long overdue for something to be done but the whole thing is a minefield and needs to be looked at seriously but a knee-jerk reaction is likely to cause more problems than it solves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 0 Posted April 16, 2015 Either doctors reports count or they don't . You can't pick and choose which ones you want to rely on. As I said before dodgy medical reports have been around speedwáy and other sports for years. Maybe it's long overdue for something to be done but the whole thing is a minefield and needs to be looked at seriously but a knee-jerk reaction is likely to cause more problems than it solves. I disagree. If someone gets a Dr note on Wednesday to say they cannot do their job on Monday yet they then do their job elsewhere on Saturday and Sunday I think you have proof the drs note is a load of twaddle and you could probably, legally, ignore that dr note. And you could probably get that dr into trouble. And you'd be justified in disciplining the employee. It's impossible to prove a rider isn't pulling a fast one if they ride Sunday, get a dr note on Sunday then ride Tuesday. Then you have to trust the dr but if ASJ rides Sat and Sun but not Monday then it's wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
