Sitingbourne To Go Elite?

[SCB 0]

 

The race format that has been used since the introduction of the EL draft riders puts a completely different slant on the averages though. In the scheduled course of an EL meeting the very best riders do not compete against the weakest riders. That is bound to compress the range of averages. As long as EL and PL and using different race formats to each other, you cannot meaningfully compare the spread of averages.

But can you not see that your comment, " the very best riders do not compete against the weakest riders" in it's own right, without figures, suggests that the EL riders in each race are of a closer level?

 

A fairer way of determining if EL races are more even would be to see what % of races are won by blue and yellow. The better riders in both league ride in red and white generally (there are exceptions in both leagues) but I bet it's more evenly spread in the EL. I'd rather bet that the 4th best rider in an EL race is going to win it than the 4th rider in the average PL race tbh.

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

The race format that has been used since the introduction of the EL draft riders puts a completely different slant on the averages though. In the scheduled course of an EL meeting the very best riders do not compete against the weakest riders. That is bound to compress the range of averages. As long as EL and PL and using different race formats to each other, you cannot meaningfully compare the spread of averages.

 

That is entirely the point, thus destroying the myth that the races in the PL are contested by more equal rivals.

[TheCookster 57]

But can you not see that your comment, " the very best riders do not compete against the weakest riders" in it's own right, without figures, suggests that the EL riders in each race are of a closer level?

 

A fairer way of determining if EL races are more even would be to see what % of races are won by blue and yellow. The better riders in both league ride in red and white generally (there are exceptions in both leagues) but I bet it's more evenly spread in the EL. I'd rather bet that the 4th best rider in an EL race is going to win it than the 4th rider in the average PL race tbh.

 

It may just be a question of semantics, SCB - but at present the rider with the highest average ("best") does not have a programmed ride against the rider with the lowest average in the opposing team ("worst"). As a result the "top" rider does not have the chance to improve his average further with an "easy" victory (theoretically) and the "bottom" rider doesn't get exposed to being "beaten up" and having his averaged reduced by defeat in a "harder" race. As an analyst you know that you need to compare like with like as much as possible and that isn't meaningfully possible while the two leagues are using the differing formats.

 

By the way, I am not coming down on one side or the other here, simply pointing out the fact that this particularly method of comparison is flawed.

 

That is entirely the point, thus destroying the myth that the races in the PL are contested by more equal rivals.

 

I'm not sure that is what most people are claiming though (though perhaps some are). I think the majority are arguing that the range of quality from 1-7 is more equal in the PL than it is in the EL, rather than on a heat by heat basis.

[speedibee 3,091]

Do attendances go up if a speedway team moves up a league, in my experience they don't but interesting to hear what others think.

 

Do attendances go up if a speedway team moves up a league, in my experience they don't but interesting to hear what others think.

Look at Leicester and you'll find the answer to that is a definite no . , also Look at Leicester for evidence of egomaniac insisting on top league despite it running the club close to bankruptcy

[SCB 0]

 

It may just be a question of semantics, SCB - but at present the rider with the highest average ("best") does not have a programmed ride against the rider with the lowest average in the opposing team ("worst"). As a result the "top" rider does not have the chance to improve his average further with an "easy" victory (theoretically) and the "bottom" rider doesn't get exposed to being "beaten up" and having his averaged reduced by defeat in a "harder" race. As an analyst you know that you need to compare like with like as much as possible and that isn't meaningfully possible while the two leagues are using the differing formats.

 

By the way, I am not coming down on one side or the other here, simply pointing out the fact that this particularly method of comparison is flawed.

 

I'm not sure that is what most people are claiming though (though perhaps some are). I think the majority are arguing that the range of quality from 1-7 is more equal in the PL than it is in the EL, rather than on a heat by heat basis.

I agree. Averages, useless for comparison. Even using the same format it's useless between two leagues and two eras. But lets take the EL, Craig Cook will ride heats for Edinburgh again NL riders, in the same team as two of them (Clegg and Branford) yet in the EL, the worst riders he's in a heat with are Bates, Starke, Nielsen, Lambert and Rose who are all PL #6's. For Cook feel free to use King. Admittedly in the case of Poole/Holder there is an anomaly.

 

The the other big gap is between Iversen, AJ, Lindgren and PK vs the lowest second strings of Robbo, Fricke, Lambert, Lawson, Zengota, Gomolski and Wells (edit - and Masters). All of whom are capable of beating heat leaders - to the point they have all done so in their last 2 EL meetings.

 

One of the arguments by PL fans is the standard is closer so you get closer racing. Thats wrong. the EL standard is closer meaning you get, IMO anyway, closer racing in the EL than you do the PL. I'm sure PL fans look at it that Iversen, Zagar, Jonsson etc are riding against Nielsen, Bates and Starke but they don't, they never meet. And IMO, thats a good thing, it keeps races closer, even if it does mess up averages due to the BSPA inability to weight races.

 

I bet theres less 0s and 1s scored in the EL. And weirdly, the last 2 days has seen two EL heat leaders score 0!

Edited May 29, 2015 by SCB

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

 

I'm not sure that is what most people are claiming though (though perhaps some are). I think the majority are arguing that the range of quality from 1-7 is more equal in the PL than it is in the EL, rather than on a heat by heat basis.

 

Yes it is what they are claiming, all of them who bring it up.

 

Otherwise it's an irrelevant point.

 

They use it as a way of attempting to illustrate the racing is closer as SCB explains. They've also used it to say the racing is 'less predictable'.

 

I raised the averages because they illustrate that the racing is far less predictable in the EL... yes, due to the race format.

[SCB 0]

Another thing, the PL format is not great. Looks at who the #7 rides against! 6 and 7, 5 and 7, 2 and 7 then 3 (or 4) and 7 (or 6). So of 8 opponents, 5 are reserves and sometimes never against a heat leader.

[TheCookster 57]

 

Yes it is what they are claiming, all of them who bring it up.

 

Otherwise it's an irrelevant point.

 

They use it as a way of attempting to illustrate the racing is closer as SCB explains. They've also used it to say the racing is 'less predictable'.

 

I raised the averages because they illustrate that the racing is far less predictable in the EL... yes, due to the race format.

 

If they are, then fair enough.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

Look at Leicester and you'll find the answer to that is a definite no . , also Look at Leicester for evidence of egomaniac insisting on top league despite it running the club close to bankruptcy

That's odd coz, when I look at Leicester I see a superb custom-built Speedway venue which a few years ago in that city

would've seemed a distant dream.

And in Speedibee I see a very bitter individual indeed...

[RedcarRacer 228]

Of course the EL is the best league, idiotic to think otherwise. Yes like many I prefer PL, but that is only because Teesside speedway is entrenched in that tier of speedway. And anyone watchig Redcar this season will testify the standard, mainly from the home team, is appauling.

 

Everyone keeps mentioning Birmingham, but that was the shocking promotion - I read Tony Mole saying they turned down his offers to help run it etc, so Birmingham with good management could easily be still in the top-flight.

 

As with every speedway club, promotion is key - you can get lucky, like at Redcar, where the fans keep turning up despite the dross being served up, week after, week after...