waiheke1 4,295 Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) All interesting stuff. Shawn Moran could be quite a rider. Wasn't it in the 1984 ICF where he was playing with the opposition? He let Kelly by in one race, but still won the meeting. And yet I also remember him at the 1987 BLRC. Five rides, five stone lasts. PS I reckon Bruce would have still been World Champ in '82, even in a Grand Prix series. He was a more effective performer than Carter on the big stage. you are right regarding the 84 ic final, thought that is far less remembered yhan Bruce's efforts in the 82 overseas final. when you look at the list of riders to win back to back ic finals, it's a pretty exclusive list. That zero point BLRC is a bit of an aberation, i don't recall him ever having had another such a disatrourous meeting, on fact he had a very good BLRC record. I agree regarding Bruce in 82, riders like Bruce, Erik, Sanders , who lifted their performances for world final would likely haver done so for GP events too. It would have been a helluva battle though. The Cradley team of 1983 weren't required to operate with a junior at number seven therefore Oxford's team compares very well under the regulations and/or restraints operating at that time. The inclusion of Per Sorensen is when Oxford's season really took off as it enabled Nigel De'Ath to ride as a reserve giving the team a better all round balance. Personally I felt that the 1972 Belle Vue team took some beating for overall strength however it's difficult to compare teams from different eras as rider control/points limits decided team make ups and promotions were only able to put out the best depending on what the rules specified in any one season. in absolute terms, no doubt the 83 Cradley side was stonger than the 86 Cheetahs. Nielsen and Wigg (86)would have been a better spearhead than Gundersen and Wigg (83), Cox may have matched Alan Grahame, but King, Collins, Ravn, Pedersen would have demolished Grahame, De'ath, Sorensen, Surnam.Your point is valid thoughm and you can;t beat the 100% record that 86 Cheetahs side had. 1987: 1 H Nielsen 12.22 2 E Gundersen 10.98 3 S Ermolenko 10.37 4 J Pedersen 9.98 5 K Tatum 9.84 6 J Doncaster 9.69 7 P Jonsson 9.59 8 T Knudsen 9.54 9 K Moran 9.50 10 J Nilsen 9.43 11 S Cross 9.25 12 M Shirra 9.13 13 S wigg 9.08 14 S Moran 8.79 15 J Andersson 8.75 16 P Ravn 8.64 17 C Morton 8.57 18 R Knight 8.31 19 N Evitts 8.29 20 R Miller 8.13 The year of the two day final in Amsterdam, and the first year where 1-2-3 in the rankings exactly match the world final result. Chirs Morton slips out of the top 10 for the first time since 1982 (for the first time since 1980 he is not the top ranked Ace) and Shaun Moran likewise for the first time since 1983, the season being the first since 1981 in which Kelly finishes ahead of Shaun in the rankings. Kelvin Tatum the top ranked Brit for the first time, Simon Cross arguably the most improved Brit climbing to 11th. Young Brits outside the top 20 include Paul Thorp (22nd), Andrew Silver (top Nl rider in 27th), Martin Dugard (29th) and Gary Havelock (31st). For the first time in the decade no Collins brother is in the top 20, with Neil the highest ranked in 35th. Andy Grahame (25th) ranks above Alan for the first time since 1982, as Alans battle with illness sees him slide outside the top 100. Per Jonsson and Jimmy Nilsen continue their improvement, both making the top 10 for the first time, for the first time in the decade Jan Andersson is not the top swede. For the yanks Ermolenko is top for the first time while Rick Millers efforts in Coventrys title winning season see him enter the top 20 for the first time (Bees partner John Jorgensen is 24th, meaning all the Coventry top 5 rank inside the top 30), with John Cook (21st) and Lance King (23rd) narrowly outside the top 20. Mitch Shirra is top kiwi for fifth consecutive year (Dave Barge climbs to 28th, his top spot to date), while with Phil Crumps departure from the BL no Aussie makes the top 50 (Steve Regeling top in 52nd). Armando Castagna is top continental rider in 41st. Gerd Riss the only other rider from the continent in the top 50 (45th), no coincidence that both had good seasons in the BL. GP series: Hard to see past the top three finishing in the same order, the real battle would be for the top 8 spots, where I see Shaun Moran edging out Wiggy despite the former finishsing narrowly ahead of Shaun, as both riders have disappointing seasons. Wildcards , Wigg would likely be a shoe in (despite it being the 2nd consecutive wildcard), the debate would likely be over which of Moran, Shirra, Jankowski and Castagna miss out, Cross perhaps in with an outside chance but unlikely to get one unless Wigg had edged into the top 8 (in which case he would likely pick up one ahead of K Moran). Top three: Nielsen Gundersen Ermolenko Top eight: Pedersen, Tatum, Knudsen, Nilsen, S Moran Qualifiers for 1988: Jonsson, Doncaster , Cook Wildcards for 1988: Wigg, K Moran, Shirra, Jankowski Edited February 16, 2016 by waihekeaces1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted February 22, 2016 Maybe it's just me, but there's few things in life I enjoy more than a list of 1980s speedway riders! My wife is one lucky lady 😀 I've been checking back for the 1988 one for a few days now. Please don't keep us waiting much longer waihekeaces! To pre-empt, I'll have a crack at my top 10. Let's see if your system crunches out a similar result. 1 Hans Nielsen - still the best, despite Gundersen having the slight psychological edge when crunch time came in the one-off World Finals 2 Erik Gundersen - third time champ 3 Jan O Pedersen - were if not for World Final I expect he'd be 2 4 Sam Ermolenko - clearly best of rest 5 Kelvin Tatum - solid and Britain's best 6 Simon Wigg - British champ with solid season 7 Per Jonsson - established world star 8 Shawn Moran - returning to best form 9 Chris Morton - glimpses of best form in last year at top level 10 Simon Cross - a taster of the rider he could have been where it not for 1990 crash How close am I? 😀 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted February 23, 2016 Sorry I'm in Rio for work for two weeks, so speedway list is quite far down my list of priorities! maybe complete on my flight home, for 88 in just need to input dome meetings which are unlikely to impact on the top 10/20. From memory that list is scarily close, though I think Jan o did finish ahead of Erik. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted February 23, 2016 Maybe it's just me, but there's few things in life I enjoy more than a list of 1980s speedway riders! My wife is one lucky lady I've been checking back for the 1988 one for a few days now. Please don't keep us waiting much longer waihekeaces! To pre-empt, I'll have a crack at my top 10. Let's see if your system crunches out a similar result. 1 Hans Nielsen - still the best, despite Gundersen having the slight psychological edge when crunch time came in the one-off World Finals 2 Erik Gundersen - third time champ 3 Jan O Pedersen - were if not for World Final I expect he'd be 2 4 Sam Ermolenko - clearly best of rest 5 Kelvin Tatum - solid and Britain's best 6 Simon Wigg - British champ with solid season 7 Per Jonsson - established world star 8 Shawn Moran - returning to best form 9 Chris Morton - glimpses of best form in last year at top level 10 Simon Cross - a taster of the rider he could have been where it not for 1990 crash How close am I? I reckon Knudsen will be in there, somewhere between 4th and 6th. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted February 23, 2016 You are correct rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted February 25, 2016 1987: 3 S Ermolenko 10.37 14 S Moran 8.79 1988 4 Sam Ermolenko - clearly best of rest 8 Shawn Moran - returning to best form Dear me you two. Sidney will be having fits! You do know he saw Ermolenko in 1983 and he was rubbish. What are you basing it on, roll of honor? Winning races? World Championship performance? Pah, rubbish. Moran beat Ermolenko in a race in 1984 and Sidney saw it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted February 27, 2016 Tbf I think those are the only two seasons in the 80s where Sam emerges ahead of Shaun. But clearly ermolenko was the better rider from 91 on, and the fact is his record is clearly superior overall. Basing it in the 80s alone I think u can call it either way, though based on my rankings over best 3 or 5 season in the decade pretty certain Shaun would emerge on top. Homeward bound now from Rio (what an incredible city!) so hopefully can get the rest of the decade finished off in the next week. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted February 28, 2016 Tbf I think those are the only two seasons in the 80s where Sam emerges ahead of Shaun. But clearly ermolenko was the better rider from 91 on, and the fact is his record is clearly superior overall. Basing it in the 80s alone I think u can call it either way, though based on my rankings over best 3 or 5 season in the decade pretty certain Shaun would emerge on top.Homeward bound now from Rio (what an incredible city!) so hopefully can get the rest of the decade finished off in the next week. Eaces1 i was beginning to think that everybody saw Shawn as an also ran,Shawn for me was the better rider of the two in the eighties. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Eaces1 i was beginning to think that everybody saw Shawn as an also ran,Shawn for me was the better rider of the two in the eighties. We've never argued that, you've tried to claim Shawn was better overall. I'd argue strongly Sam was better in the 80's as well, considering he had only been riding speedway a couple of years when he debuted in England in 83 for just a few meets. Obviously Moran was better in 84 as he was an established heat leader at this point and Sam was having his first full season... after that though?? Sam reached a run-off for the World Title in 85 when only racing in the US... has that been achieved by any other US rider ever (maybe way back)? Moran however was very good that year winning the Overseas and InterContinental rounds. 86 Sam had higher average in the league, 7th in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. Sam won the Overseas Final. 87 Sam had higher average in the league, 3rd in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. 88 Moran actually edged the league averages 9.51 to 9.40.. but Sam was 4th in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. 89 Sam had higher average in the league and only his terrible crash prevented an almost certain World Final appearance again.. Moran once again, didn't make the World Final. Sam won the Overseas Final. I checked BLRC records but Sam didn't actually ride in the event in the 80's (Preben Eriksen x 2 and Ronnie Correy representing Wolves in 86,87,88.. Sam injured in 89). To summarise, early to mid 80's Moran was obviously better as Sam was only just starting out.. after that Sam had the edge in my opinion. Edited February 28, 2016 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kryten 17 Posted March 8, 2016 I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) We've never argued that, you've tried to claim Shawn was better overall. I'd argue strongly Sam was better in the 80's as well, considering he had only been riding speedway a couple of years when he debuted in England in 83 for just a few meets. Obviously Moran was better in 84 as he was an established heat leader at this point and Sam was having his first full season... after that though?? Sam reached a run-off for the World Title in 85 when only racing in the US... has that been achieved by any other US rider ever (maybe way back)? Moran however was very good that year winning the Overseas and InterContinental rounds. 86 Sam had higher average in the league, 7th in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. Sam won the Overseas Final. 87 Sam had higher average in the league, 3rd in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. 88 Moran actually edged the league averages 9.51 to 9.40.. but Sam was 4th in World Final... Moran didn't make World Final. 89 Sam had higher average in the league and only his terrible crash prevented an almost certain World Final appearance again.. Moran once again, didn't make the World Final. Sam won the Overseas Final. I checked BLRC records but Sam didn't actually ride in the event in the 80's (Preben Eriksen x 2 and Ronnie Correy representing Wolves in 86,87,88.. Sam injured in 89). To summarise, early to mid 80's Moran was obviously better as Sam was only just starting out.. after that Sam had the edge in my opinion. No, No,No,😀😀😂 Edited March 8, 2016 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted March 9, 2016 No, No,No, Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it, history has spoken and it's not even close. Run along and watch Ronnie O'Sullivan in the Grand Prix.... oh wait... whoops! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it, history has spoken and it's not even close. Run along and watch Ronnie O'Sullivan in the Grand Prix.... oh wait... whoops! Can remember Hendry getting spanked by Mark Johnson Allen many times Ooop's, Davis 1/10 to Knowles happens to all great champions. Sam was a great rider but not as good as Shawn in the eighties. Edited March 9, 2016 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted March 9, 2016 Can remember Hendry getting spanked by Mark Johnson Allen many times Ooop's, Davis 1/10 to Knowles happens to all great champions. Sam was a great rider but not as good as Shawn in the eighties. Agreed, they can all get beat. You're right, Sam wasn't as good, he was better. How many World Final rostrums for Shawn? How many run-offs for World Title? How many World Finals? Sam only rode for half the decade and did more in that time than Shawn in 10 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted March 9, 2016 Agreed, they can all get beat. You're right, Sam wasn't as good, he was better. How many World Final rostrums for Shawn? How many run-offs for World Title? How many World Finals? Sam only rode for half the decade and did more in that time than Shawn in 10 years. Again your OPINION only,get that into your head.We are all entitled to ours GET IT ?? rightly or wrongly Sam was a great rider.Was he a better rider than lets say four examples Gollob,Adams, Moran,Sigalos for me No that is only my PERSONAL view is that ok with you.?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
