waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 22, 2017 That's your opinion others think differently Very probably beyond the comprehension of a twonk like you Tbf, on this occasion starman makes a valid point.Simply doing what worked 40-50 years ago is not the basis for a successful business model. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted January 22, 2017 My thinking of things is whoever wins the league are champions.The other three join up have a interest and also the team who wins the league can get the double.A proper league winner going into a cup competition would that not be good i think it could ŵork. I recall back in 2002 when Oxford were 'denied' the opportunity of defending their hard fought championship (2001) because Peterborough failed to fulfil it's remaining home fixture (Oxford) before the cut-off date (presumably instigated by SKY?). Peterborough went forward to the Play-Offs much to the disgust of many Oxford supporters at the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 22, 2017 Tbf, on this occasion starman makes a valid point. Simply doing what worked 40-50 years ago is not the basis for a successful business model. The counter argument to that being that all the changes instigated since those days have hardly brought a rosy future to Speedway - have they? One might ask oneself might things have been better had they left things well alone? Change for changes sake rarely works, and it is my belief has actually made Speedway a less viable proposition than it used to be. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted January 22, 2017 i've never agreed with your view to remove all tactical rides TWK but that is a good point - home wins are generally good for business however you're wasting your breath about play offs - far too lucrative to give up now - I'd prefer league champions and play offs winners given another title It's been explain countless times ..no one go to plays offs that don't include the league title being on the line ..it' s the same mistake people keep coming up with... plans with out any thought about how it's going to work money wise ..the old chestnut about playoffs not working is shown to wrong by working in every sport they are try . The bottom line the people who don't like play off in all sports tend to be all over 60 . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted January 22, 2017 It's been explain countless times ..no one go to plays offs that don't include the league title being on the line ..it' s the same mistake people keep coming up with... plans with out any thought about how it's going to work money wise ..the old chestnut about playoffs not working is shown to wrong by working in every sport they are try . The bottom line the people who don't like play off in all sports tend to be all over 60 . ...but as I've tried to clarify do Play-Offs decide who wins League Championships in football or is it a system to decide promotion and regulation? Does the team who finishes top in the Premier League (and the other leagues) not finish as champions? If that is the case why doesn't football follow that remit? I've nothing personal against Play-Off's (it's an American innovation) but not all sports appear to adopt that system. ...but as I've tried to clarify do Play-Offs decide who wins League Championships in football or is it a system to decide promotion and regulation? Does the team who finishes top in the Premier League (and the other leagues) not finish as champions? If that is the case why doesn't football follow that remit? I've nothing personal against Play-Off's (it's an American innovation) but not all sports appear to adopt that system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted January 22, 2017 ...but as I've tried to clarify do Play-Offs decide who wins League Championships in football or is it a system to decide promotion and regulation? Does the team who finishes top in the Premier League (and the other leagues) not finish as champions? If that is the case why doesn't football follow that remit? I've nothing personal against Play-Off's (it's an American innovation) but not all sports appear to adopt that system. Yet again in football they have plenty to play for so there is no need to decide the title like that ...speedway sadly does not have that option ...the season for most clubs out plays off would be over before it started and crowds would drop because of that and put clubs in trouble money wise , Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 22, 2017 It's been explain countless times ..no one go to plays offs that don't include the league title being on the line ..it' s the same mistake people keep coming up with... plans with out any thought about how it's going to work money wise ..the old chestnut about playoffs not working is shown to wrong by working in every sport they are try . The bottom line the people who don't like play off in all sports tend to be all over 60 . Probably because we were taught about Sportsmanship and Fair Play from a young age. Something, I am sad to say, that is lacking in Sport these days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted January 22, 2017 Probably because we were taught about Sportsmanship and Fair Play from a young age. Something, I am sad to say, that is lacking in Sport these days. Who is breaking a sportmanship and fair play ? everyone knows the rules before the start of the season . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Yet again in football they have plenty to play for so there is no need to decide the title like that ...speedway sadly does not have that option ...the season for most clubs out plays off would be over before it started and crowds would drop because of that and put clubs in trouble money wise , As I keep re-itereating the title in Football is decided by whoever finishes top. The Play-Offs determine who gets promoted and relegated...not to decide the winners. However I realise that money and TV coverage is the fundamental issue...just trying to clarify matters in that Football and Speedway differ in its objectives. Edited January 22, 2017 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starman2006 2,354 Posted January 22, 2017 Tbf, on this occasion starman makes a valid point. Simply doing what worked 40-50 years ago is not the basis for a successful business model. Thank you. Times have changed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 22, 2017 Thank you. Times have changed.No problem. Obviously the theory about monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare is true... Probably because we were taught about Sportsmanship and Fair Play from a young age. Something, I am sad to say, that is lacking in Sport these days. Says the man who would return to speedway if they replaced the double points ride with the patently more unfair tactical sub rules of old?As I keep re-itereating the title in Football is decided by whoever finishes top. The Play-Offs determine who gets promoted and relegated...not to decide the winners. However I realise that money and TV coverage is the fundamental issue...just trying to clarify matters in that Football and Speedway differ in its objectives.a minute ago you were clarifying, now you are reiterating?As orion says, football doesn't need play offs as clubs have something to play for - 2nd to 4th champs league, 5th 6th Europe league, avoiding bottom 3 relegation spots, plus every place gained in the league is worth something like a million quid. Almost every other major sport uses playoffs - rugby, league, most cricket comps, nba, nfl, nhl etc. And of course football in many non European countries. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 22, 2017 Who is breaking a sportmanship and fair play ? everyone knows the rules before the start of the season . Aaaahhhhh yes - the usual mantra. What does knowing the Rules beforehand have to do with Sportsmanship or Fair Play? Answer - absolutely nothing. Fair Play and Sportsmanship is the way, the spirit in which the Game is played/run. Perhaps once you understand that you will cease from trotting out the same tired and hackneyed old mantra again and again. Unless, of course, you condone the League Champions not being the League Champions. To me that is neither Sporting nor Fair Play. No problem. Obviously the theory about monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare is true... Says the man who would return to speedway if they replaced the double points ride with the patently more unfair tactical sub rules of old? a minute ago you were clarifying, now you are reiterating? As orion says, football doesn't need play offs as clubs have something to play for - 2nd to 4th champs league, 5th 6th Europe league, avoiding bottom 3 relegation spots, plus every place gained in the league is worth something like a million quid. Almost every other major sport uses playoffs - rugby, league, most cricket comps, nba, nfl, nhl etc. And of course football in many non European countries. For goodness sake read my Posts - I have never, ever Posted that. If you are going to pull me up for something at least make sure of your facts. I defy you to find anywhere I have said that. I have said that I would prefer Speedway without either the Tactical Ride or the Tactical Substitute. I would get rid of both as I have constantly said. To your final point - it doesn't make it right though - no matter how many Sports do it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Aaaahhhhh yes - the usual mantra. What does knowing the Rules beforehand have to do with Sportsmanship or Fair Play? Answer - absolutely nothing. Fair Play and Sportsmanship is the way, the spirit in which the Game is played/run. Perhaps once you understand that you will cease from trotting out the same tired and hackneyed old mantra again and again. Unless, of course, you condone the League Champions not being the League Champions. To me that is neither Sporting nor Fair Play. For goodness sake read my Posts - I have never, ever Posted that. If you are going to pull me up for something at least make sure of your facts. I defy you to find anywhere I have said that. I have said that I would prefer Speedway without either the Tactical Ride or the Tactical Substitute. I would get rid of both as I have constantly said. To your final point - it doesn't make it right though - no matter how many Sports do it. Lol and you don't churn out the same stuff on this subject all the time ?the irony ....no one is league champions because they come top of the league as the rules that everyone knows before say so .so knowing the rules before hand has everything to do with sportsmanship and fair play as like any other sport or game sticking to rules is a massive part of that ...so to sum it up people who stick to the rules have no fair play or sportsmanship ? For goodness sake read my Posts - I have never, ever Posted that. If you are going to pull me up for something at least make sure of your facts. I defy you to find anywhere I have said that. You said it on here about 20 times ...everyone knows that Edited January 22, 2017 by orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 22, 2017 Fwiw I agree that a league system is a fairer way to determine the champs. Just not commercially viable. Funny though that advocates of the league structure to determine champs are generally those opposed to the GPs as a method of determining the world champ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) No problem. Obviously the theory about monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare is true... Says the man who would return to speedway if they replaced the double points ride with the patently more unfair tactical sub rules of old? a minute ago you were clarifying, now you are reiterating? As orion says, football doesn't need play offs as clubs have something to play for - 2nd to 4th champs league, 5th 6th Europe league, avoiding bottom 3 relegation spots, plus every place gained in the league is worth something like a million quid. Almost every other major sport uses playoffs - rugby, league, most cricket comps, nba, nfl, nhl etc. And of course football in many non European countries. ...yes I was re-iterating what I was trying to clarify! Edited January 22, 2017 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
