BWitcher 12,453 Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: Carry on talking to yourself Chunky. Says Sidney replying. The gift that keeps on giving. Only waiting for the threat to knock Chunky out now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted August 11, 2019 6 hours ago, orion said: I think Josh Auty is better than Woffy and Lee . But not as good as Buzz Burrows 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted August 11, 2019 5 hours ago, Midland Red said: opinion /əˈpɪnjən/ noun a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. That doesn't exactly help your case does it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigACE 91 Posted August 11, 2019 7 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: Really i think many a Peter Craven fan would disagree with you!!!! winning a Gp series is a different disipline than a one off world final that is fact also your opinion of Auty has always been blinkered. You are very much right about Peter Craven. I have spoken to many a fellow fan who says he was the best ever full stop in fact. I cannot judge somebody who was a lot before my time tbh. I will always say Tai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted August 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, BWitcher said: But not as good as Buzz Burrows I was deliberately keeping quiet about Buzz... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted August 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, craigACE said: You are very much right about Peter Craven. I have spoken to many a fellow fan who says he was the best ever full stop in fact. I cannot judge somebody who was a lot before my time tbh. I will always say Tai. Craven is a genuine contender, with two wins and two thirds, in a career that wasn't cut short by his own frailties and poor decisions. As others have said, Lee's self-destruction weighs heavily against him, as there is more to being an all-time great than talent and potential. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigACE 91 Posted August 11, 2019 Looks to me like most people agree on who is the best from a era. So as a example whoever was the best 60s/70s, 80s/90s up until now. Then the question gets asked who out of those 3 eras is the best ?. Ultimately making them the best ever. Nobody agrees. Why compare anyway ?. The Sport was different then. And i wouldnt care most people(me included) was not around to see Peter Craven etc. Suppose it is fun. I prefer debating the best ever Belle Vue riders. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted August 11, 2019 44 minutes ago, BWitcher said: That doesn't exactly help your case does it! It defines the word “opinion” I gave my “opinion” I did not state a “fact” You regularly give on this forum your own “opinions” on assorted matters, the majority of which are other people’s “opinions”, with which you disagree - meaning that you consider your “opinions” in some way superior to other people’s “opinions” Where you disprove “facts” quoted by others, there can be little argument or discussion But if it’s an “opinion” with which you disagree, or which you disprove of, then that is an entirely different matter I stick by my “opinion” about Michael Lee and Tai Woffinden, whether you disagree, disapprove or not I made no statement of “fact” about the two riders, so there can be no discussion there Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: But not as good as Buzz Burrows Have you ever watched him live Witcher ? I will meet you for a shandy at Wolves tomorrow if you don't turn up are tell everyone you are a coward ? how about it witcher yes or no ? Edited August 11, 2019 by orion 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillipsr 2,057 Posted August 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, orion said: How ever watched him live Witcher ? I will meet you for a shandy at Wolves tomorrow if you don't turn up are tell everyone you are a coward ? how about it witcher yes or no ? Burrows and Josh Auty would of ruled world speedway of it was just based on pure talent... Lee, Woffinden, Craven also rans in comparison 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted August 11, 2019 57 minutes ago, craigACE said: Looks to me like most people agree on who is the best from a era. So as a example whoever was the best 60s/70s, 80s/90s up until now. Then the question gets asked who out of those 3 eras is the best ?. Ultimately making them the best ever. Nobody agrees. Why compare anyway ?. The Sport was different then. And i wouldnt care most people(me included) was not around to see Peter Craven etc. Suppose it is fun. I prefer debating the best ever Belle Vue riders. Thing is, while titles aren't everything (certainly not National Championships anyway), they are a guide at the highest level. Therefore, Woffinden's record is far superior to that of any British rider, which is why we believe he is the best. Craven won less, but as I said, he can be considered a genuine contender for the moniker of "Best Brit". Lee's record is worse, and his self-destructive streak and poor temperament means that realistically, he is not in the same class as Woffinden or Craven. Just because he had more talent and more potential doesn't mean that he was better. It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there. Steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Midland Red said: It defines the word “opinion” I gave my “opinion” I did not state a “fact” You regularly give on this forum your own “opinions” on assorted matters, the majority of which are other people’s “opinions”, with which you disagree - meaning that you consider your “opinions” in some way superior to other people’s “opinions” Where you disprove “facts” quoted by others, there can be little argument or discussion But if it’s an “opinion” with which you disagree, or which you disprove of, then that is an entirely different matter I stick by my “opinion” about Michael Lee and Tai Woffinden, whether you disagree, disapprove or not I made no statement of “fact” about the two riders, so there can be no discussion there Still not got a clue have you. An opinion is worthless in any form of intelligent conversation unless backed up with reasons. "I saw them both" most certainly does not qualify as one of them when they would have been on different machinery, different opponents, different track surfaces. In fact, anyone attempting to give an opinion based on that is foolish in the extreme..... It's you getting all worked up because you have quite simply been unable to back up your opinion with anything at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted August 11, 2019 I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments! In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs Perhaps now, you will “get it”! PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark 1,497 Posted August 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Midland Red said: I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments! In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs Perhaps now, you will “get it”! PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that! can't see how anyone can compare riders from different era's who used different bikes and competed in a different style GP series. its all personal so no one is right no one wrong. its what you like best. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted August 11, 2019 3 hours ago, chunky said: It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there. Steve I'm not sure that's quite true, Steve. The three you mention are still sort of within living memory. I've seen all three for example. Where would you place Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Jack Young.....for example? Only a matter of opinion of course. Oh, and what about Savalas Clouting? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites