Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted December 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Pinny said: Neither has improved at all over four years , the very slight average increase is cancelled out by the league being weaker now than 4 years ago. Do you think this years league was that weak?? and will next season be even weaker in your opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted December 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Pinny said: Neither has improved at all over four years , the very slight average increase is cancelled out by the league being weaker now than 4 years ago. Stop using the 4 year combined average as a reason. Dress it up how you want. masters improved his average for 3 years running from 2016-2018 - how has that not improved at all? Using your same argument Doyle should increase his average every year because the league has weakened. Has he? You can’t use one reason for not increasing (weakened league) without the other variables such as injury etc. 3 hours ago, Pinny said: Yeah. Says me. masters average according to Brum has gone up 0.17 since four years ago. Thorsell 0.27 in four years. tell me, in a league getting weaker by the year, how the hell have either of them improved???? Masters went from 7.08 to 8.11 from 2016 - 2018. That’s over a point increase. So that’s no improvement at all? Very odd way of looking at things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted December 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Do you think this years league was that weak?? and will next season be even weaker in your opinion. Even tho it would appear to be weaker there have still been quality riders join our league in the most recent years. Such as Woryna and Milik who came back in low averages but were already making big strides abroad. Greg (Poole) and Tai (Wolves) have also made appearances. Obviously I’d prefer we encourage more top riders back which would have a positive knock on in attendance and there is no bigger supporter of a stronger league than me. Next year WILL be stronger because NP is back, no arguing. So obviously I completely agree with your point. Therefore I find it hard to agree with those who comment that riders don’t improve and use a weaker league as an excuse. Doyle’s average should be nearly 12 each season if we use the logic of others! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acef 795 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Pinny said: Yeah. Says me. masters average according to Brum has gone up 0.17 since four years ago. Thorsell 0.27 in four years. tell me, in a league getting weaker by the year, how the hell have either of them improved???? I'm not arguing with you subjectively, because it's immaterial. Their averages have increased. The circumstances around why, what way the wind was blowing or what we had for our breakfast this morning. I'm not arsed. Their averages have gone up. End of debate. Edited December 17, 2019 by acef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acef 795 Posted December 17, 2019 Averages are pivotal in speedway. It's how we measure improvement. It's how we measure decline. It's how we construct 7 man teams. Plenty of riders have got worse as the league has weakened. Plenty have got better. It's a very black and white argument. If someone's average has increased, they have got better. All the noise around it matters not a bit when it comes to team building etc. The paperwork says they have increased their averages and frankly that is the bottom line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acef 795 Posted December 17, 2019 56 minutes ago, stevebrum said: Stop using the 4 year combined average as a reason. Dress it up how you want. masters improved his average for 3 years running from 2016-2018 - how has that not improved at all? Using your same argument Doyle should increase his average every year because the league has weakened. Has he? You can’t use one reason for not increasing (weakened league) without the other variables such as injury etc. Masters went from 7.08 to 8.11 from 2016 - 2018. That’s over a point increase. So that’s no improvement at all? Very odd way of looking at things. I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted December 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, acef said: I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! You make a fair point obviously! Some are trying to use just one variable as an excuse, which of course it isn’t. Jacob had a huge increase in the PL from 2016 -2017. To suggest he hasn’t improved in 4 seasons is quite plainly crackers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMessiahOfTheBSF 84 Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, stevebrum said: You make a fair point obviously! Some are trying to use just one variable as an excuse, which of course it isn’t. Jacob had a huge increase in the PL from 2016 -2017. To suggest he hasn’t improved in 4 seasons is quite plainly crackers! Stats don't lie Steve. Both of them are virtually no better off than they were 4 years ago and that's in a league that gets weaker with every passing year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lukas 911 Posted December 17, 2019 Why all the waffle about Thorsel?.. hopefully he's not gonna be riding for us Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acef 795 Posted December 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Rockstar99 said: Stats don't lie Steve. Both of them are virtually no better off than they were 4 years ago and that's in a league that gets weaker with every passing year. Your right. The stats don't lie. And whether you'd like to believe it or not, they have improved. The margin of improvement is not the debate. I'm finding it difficult to understand why certain people are having such a challenge with this. It really is very simple stuff. Foundation level. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Call me wolfie 677 Posted December 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, acef said: I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! You are absolutely spot on, his injury at the end of 2017 clearly had a massive effect on him in 2018, as did missing the first couple of months of this season. If he can stay injury free for 2020, it will be a much fairer reflection of his ability Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, stevebrum said: Even tho it would appear to be weaker there have still been quality riders join our league in the most recent years. Such as Woryna and Milik who came back in low averages but were already making big strides abroad. Greg (Poole) and Tai (Wolves) have also made appearances. Obviously I’d prefer we encourage more top riders back which would have a positive knock on in attendance and there is no bigger supporter of a stronger league than me. Next year WILL be stronger because NP is back, no arguing. So obviously I completely agree with your point. Therefore I find it hard to agree with those who comment that riders don’t improve and use a weaker league as an excuse. Doyle’s average should be nearly 12 each season if we use the logic of others! I actually think the league gained some strength last year Steve, every side apart from Peterborough ( who were unlucky team got scuppered) could all be competitive on there day.Doyley's average shows it is not easy set ups so important these days actually over a period i think the Pawlicki's and like might return to these shores.I am no fan of Pedersen but i am really looking forward to seeing him back and it will be great if he can get to a really consistent level and push Doyle he is capable even now. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, acef said: Averages are pivotal in speedway. It's how we measure improvement. It's how we measure decline. It's how we construct 7 man teams. Plenty of riders have got worse as the league has weakened. Plenty have got better. It's a very black and white argument. If someone's average has increased, they have got better. All the noise around it matters not a bit when it comes to team building etc. The paperwork says they have increased their averages and frankly that is the bottom line. Not necessarily the case due to the heat format in operation now I'm afraid. The Wolves riders are case in point regarding that. Any of Masters, Schlein and Thorssell saw their averages rocket when they were riding at either No 3 or 4. Thorssell spent most of 2016/17 in those positions. When they ride at 1 or 5 (especially 1) their average dropped. As a result there was a pretty constant interchange between them for the No 1 jacket. You'd have to break it down and get an average for them at each position before you could use their average to paint a true picture of improvement..or not. That all said, if we are looking over a four year period then there is no question that they have both improved, as they weren't riding at No 1 in 2016. Questions could be asked whether they can improve further, Thorssell is the more likely as injuries (as pointed out) have effected him. Edited December 17, 2019 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMessiahOfTheBSF 84 Posted December 17, 2019 question to acef and stevebrum. What is your opinion on Chris Harris. Is he on the decline? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warren2 65 Posted December 17, 2019 I am pretty sure I clicked on the Peterborough Panthers 2020 Thread.... Next rider announcement sounds like it will be Xmas Eve, will it be another ‘New’ signing or a returning rider from 2019? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
