norbold

You were saying....?

Try the 10th comment on the first page.

A field of great speculation of course, who would have won the War Time championships. Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Tommy Price, Eric Chitty....all arguably would have been at their peak during that period.

Right from the very start of my involvement with speedway I was always interested in its history and I read up as much as I could and spoke to many "old timers", who had been going to speedway for years. Based on this, and on my own observations of the then current speedway scene, every now and then I used to produce my own Top 20 greatest riders list, which over the years I did it, which was most of the 1960s, changed every time I did it. However, the Top Four always stayed the same (though the order changed!) and they were Ove Fundin, Vic Duggan, Tom Farndon and Jack Parker.

He did beat Malcolm Simmons though!

Yes, I take your point, but the problem here is that riders like Price and Williams didn't have the same opportunities as modern day riders like Woffinden, or even Collins, to ride in other top level events as there weren't any. One of the difficulties in comparing riders from different eras. Also the league in the late 40s and early 50s did contain all the world's top riders of the day, so, in a way, league averages were probably much more important in those days as a comparison between riders. And, in fact, my earlier post was only a comparison between Price and Williams and my attempt to explain why I would place Price above Williams.

Terry Stone did actually manage to save a few trophies, but was too late for all the paper ephemera.

Well, I guess if we take the question strictly of referring just to the world championship victories and nothing else, Woffinden has to be first as he won 3, then Williams and Craven with 2 and then the rest. No argument. Your second question is exactly the dilemma I mentioned.

I'm guessing this must be the first time ever that a thread on the Speedway Forum has moved into other interesting discussions not directly related to the original op.

I think he died in about 2006.

It is also the case that Tommy Price was at the top longer than Freddie Williams. As iris says he qualified for the 1939 World Final and it was only the period between 1951 and 1954 that Fred Williams topped Tommy Price in the League averages. Even in 1950, when Williams won the World Final, he only came 13th in the League averages with an average of 8.75 to Price's 9.83 and 3rd place. In 1955 and 1956, Price again outscored Williams in the League. It is true that in that 1950-1953 period, Williams had a far superior World Final record, but he really only had five years at the top while Price was at the top in 1939 and then from 1946 - 1956, and again, as iris point out, missed out what would probably have been his very best years.. Which brings us back to the question of do we count the best as the rider who was at the top the longest or the rider who had a shorter period at the top but was probably better in that short period? Which is part of the problem when comparing Lee with Craven or Collins for example.

Ok, found them! The Speedway Star for 13 April, in an article by Frank MacLean, says almost word for word what Brian Burford says in his book, under the headline, 'Craven asks for move'. The 20 April follow-up, also by Frank MacLean, is headlined, 'Belle Vue said "No" to Craven. This article says: 'Belle Vue gave a very definite "No!" to Peter Craven's request for a transfer recently. In fact, the Manchester track management simply refused to hear anything more about the World Champion going to another track..." 'But the rider in question has other ideas, He told me as much before leaving his Liverpool home to board the plane for Vienna...So the matter, it now appears will need to go to a Board of Arbitration for settlement. 'Several tracks, and I understand Norwich is one of them, are more than just interested in getting Craven but at this stage when even the question of transfer fees cannot be considered it is impossible to say just where the World Champion would move.....'

He was also secretary of the New Cross Supporters' Club in 1960 and 1961.

I think mine would be the same as yours, Rob, except I would have nos. 6&7 the other way round.

I deny it. What about Tom Farndon?

Yes, he is definitely wrong about Craven starting off a handicap, but I think that citing contemporary issues of Speedway Star regarding Craven's transfer request shows it did happen. My own copies are in storage at the moment, but hopefully I can get down to look at them tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

Interview with Brenda Craven In Howard Jones's book, "Belle Vue Aces Hyde Road Special": "Howard Jones: Rumours suggest Brenda that 1963 may well have been his last season. Is that right? Brenda Craven: Yes, I think it possibly might have been. He was always talking about it at the time, although he may well have ridden one more season in 1964."

From Brian Burford's book, "Peter Craven The Wizard of Balance": "In what would prove to be his final season, Peter Craven seemed to be riding as well as ever. However, it was said that Peter wasn't very happy with the reduced number of meetings at Belle Vue, and he was considering a move. In the issue of Speedway Star dated 13 April, it says that Craven wanted a move because there were only scheduled to be twenty home meetings for club riders that year. In the following week's issue, Frank MacLean reported that the Aces' management had turned down his request. Norwich were said to be keen to engage his services if he did decide to leave the famous club. "Although Peter began the season with the Aces, the transfer saga eventually went into arbitration. A court of arbitration met in London where they heard the points of view expressed by both the Aces' manager Ken Sharples, and the rider. The court then ruled that it wasn't in the best interests of speedway that PC's request for a move south was granted. "There was also talk that he had planned to make the 1963 season his final one, and one source - who was close to Peter - revealed that it was felt he would make it his last year. After all, what was there to prove? "Talk of his possible retirement is given credibility when Brenda confirmed reports that he had been in negotiations with Charlie Oates about possibly buying his business from him.....John Gibson, who was a sports journalist for the local Edinburgh paper, said that Peter had confided in him when he was in the pits during that fateful night at the Old Meadowbank Stadium that he was considering buying a motorcycle business in the Lancashire area......The Manchester Evening News sports journalist, Duncan Measor, also said that Peter had confided in him that he was considering his future., "I believe that in a year or two I will have to think about another job. I never want to go on until I am a has-been", he told Measor."

The sadly missed speedway historian, Keith Farman, who was an absolutely devoted Ove Fundin fan, made a comprehensive study of all Ove's races. He found that although Fundin beat all his main rivals more times than they beat him, Craven was the one who beat him the most times.

Sorry, anecdote alert! Your link also shows all the BH winners as well. Some years ago, when I was writing my Speedway in the South East book, I interviewed Wally Green, who had ridden for Hastings in 1948. I asked him how he felt winning the Bronze Helmet from Bert Roger at his own track of Exeter. He told me he had never won the Bronze Helmet. I tried to assure him he had but he absolutely refused to believe me. When I saw him again, I took a copy of Speedway World to show him he had definitely won it. He said he had no recollection of it at all! So, I wasn't able to get a scoop on how he felt to put in my book!!! Mind you, I suppose finishing runner-up in the World Championship Final in 1950 does put the Bronze Helmet victory into the shade a bit!

Another second division rider, Bob Leverenz, also qualified for the 1951 final, finishing 8th, while Geoff Mardon, a third division rider, qualified as reserve.

In 1951, Jack Young began the year as holder of the Silver Helmet and then went on to defend it against Arthur Forrest, Derek Close, Bob Leverenz before losing it to Tommy Miller.

I don't think he beat Jack Parker. He won it from Ronnie Moore in 1952 and then held it against Moore, Freddie Williams and Split Waterman. He later won it again in 1955 when he won by default against Ronnie Moore, who was injured. He was then injured himself and didn't defend it.

Incidentally, just as an observation....Those were the days, eh, when you could get two meetings in successive weeks at a track featuring the top riders in the world in individual competition? I think we all know the chances of anything like that happening at a British track today!

Briggo wasn't great round New Cross. Of course, he was very good and was New Cross's top rider but, apart from 1959, when he didn't ride in England apart from a couple of meetings at the end of the season including the World Championship Final, I think it was just about his worst year in Britain. Fundin and Moore were far better round New Cross. It was the first time his average dropped below 10 points per match since 1954. It was also the only year between 1956 and 1966 that he was ranked outside the Top Five in the end of year Speedway Star rankings. I would agree, Sidney. Notwithstanding Fred Williams's success in 1953, I would say that Jack Young was the dominant rider in the world from 1951-1954 when Ronnie Moore rose to stardom.