tyler42

Nothing has changed really, This program was from the Junior grass track championships 1978

Thats quite a broad statement to make. I know plenty of riders past, who would disagree with that statement

You are entitled to not to like my post. Of course that is what the forum is for, but for you to abuse me is totally different. As i said earlier, you don't know me so please don't call me names. Lets end this little discussion now if you don't mind. I don't have to defend my opinion to you or anyone else. My opinion is my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. There are lots of posts i don't agree with, but that is the posters opinion. I can challenge it if i want, but I would certainly not abuse someone for there opinions. Thank you

Where in my post do i say the sport was dangerous back in the day. Please post all of my post. Not the little bit you like. so that you can attack me.

Sorry what cause. It was a point of view. If you think I'm being offending to anyone thats your point of view. The difference is, i have not in my post attacked you personally, So don't do it to me. Thank you

Don't call me a sick man because you don't agree with my point of view. Many riders have lost there life's as well. Does that make me a sick man as well. You don't know me so please refrain from name calling.

Go back and read the post again, I have said nothing about what I believe is the 'fairest' way to decide a league championship. I must apologise, I read that completely it wrong

Funny enough. If you were to have gone back a little, you would have seen i said the exact same thing about Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller Being the two who i thought were shock winners. Other posters thought to differ. Saying both riders were tipped to win said finals. As for Jessup being better than Lee that year. Sure Jessup won the British final and Commonwealth final, but they were qualifying rounds. The final was all that counted. Just like qualifying heats in GP's. It does not matter if you get 18 pts like Laguta did on Saturday. The final was the one that counted and TW won that even though he only scored 11 pts in the qualifying heats. Just to add, How many riders over the years have won a world final on just 11 pts? I know it does not matter because the GP system is what it is. Just like the one off world finals Were what they were. The list of world champions other than the two mentioned were all riders that were not shock winners. You say Havelock was not the best the year he won the final. He won the British final, 3rd in the Commonwealth final he won the the Overseas final and lost in a run off to Per Jonsson in the world semi-final and won the final on 14 pts. That is a better record of qualification than Jessups in 1980, but you say Jessup should have won the 80 final and you question Havelock's Championship.

I agree wholeheartedly of what you say. at the end of the day I think we all love speedway the history and the present.

Funny that, because i'm still waiting for your comment earlier in the day about the world finals or are you like a politician. Just ignore the question and carry on? Thats a bit of a contradiction is it not, to what you have been saying all night about the The strengths of the GP series are so much fairer than a one off world final!! Now you you think a one off meeting is the fairest way to decide the league championship! please make your mind up. I have enjoyed our debate. Good Night for now.

If you go back a tad had read my posts. I said that Poland was what you could compare the old 1st div with. Your argument has always been that todays league uk is far stronger than the old 1st div? The old 1st div was of the same level as The Polish extra league is now, because it had the same criteria i.e the best riders in the world competing in it. Are we getting any nearer or have i dreamed that up as well ?

Its so open to debate. The three riders you mention. Muller won it Plech, made the rostrum twice and ironically Jancarz's record was very poor, but he imo had the best British league record of the three. Yes Ermolenko should have gone, but thats the luck you sometimes get. Do you not think lady luck was on TW side when he won his first world final? He and Emil Sayfutdinov were just a couple a points apart. the Emil Sayfutdinov got injured. Was that the slice of luck needed to go on and win his first championship? You seemed to have missed my point. How can 50 riders of which 40 plus are of 2nd div standard be stronger than the old 1st div which included the top riders of the day. How many riders in todays league can you tell me are of world class? there are no comparisons to be had.

What you say is absolutely true, but you are not telling the whole story of your argument. The above is all average based . Whereas a lot of your posts you state on a regular basis that the standard of league racing of today is of a higher standard than that of yesteryear. This is where i don't agree with you. It is all too easy to look back with rose tinted glasses and spout ' oh it was so much better in my day" I don't agree with that analogy, but on the other hand i don't agree with you and other posters who say it was so amateurish. Quote "Riders turning up with a bike on the back of a car" Its called progress. It would be pretty sad that 40 years on and nothing had changed. Its ironic that todays riders "in the UK" turn up with three bikes, 2 mechanics and look so professional, but the sport is falling on its arse. Its fantastic that the sport is on t.v on a regular basis and the stadiums look fantastic ' Unfortunately not in the UK" And of course it a lot faster than of yesteryear. The sport looked a lot more faster in the 80's than it did in the 70's and so on, but it does not mean the riders were any less skilful. As for the riders of today, They are very much like athletes Its called progress. You would never see a footballer down the bookies or a snooker hall in this day and age and you would never see a rider having a smoke in the pits either, both of which was the norm back in the day. Have a look at an old football match from the 70's its so slow compared to today. Does that mean the likes of Best, Osgood, Marsh etc are not as good as todays footballers? Fitness wise of course not, but skill wise its all relevant. Todays top riders are fitter and on the whole a lot more professional, than there counterparts of yesteryear. But more skilful?, But the one one thing we should be able to agree on, is that todays standard of speedway in the UK has fallen year on year and as i said earlier it is now made up of mostly 2nd division riders. The polish Extra league is now like what the old 1st division use to be over here. All the best riders rode here and just like in Poland now. all the top riders ride there. So my point is, if the polish league is of such a high standard "which of course it is", why was the old 1st division in the uk not of the same standard? which some on here spout. Well of course it was, you had the best riders just like Poland has now. You can't have it both ways. imo.

maybe not, but if you look at the records of the one off world finals Its hard to find a rider who did not deserve to win it in that particular year. Maybe one or two might have been unlucky with a fall or an ef i.e Jessup`, Plech, but if you look at the list, i don't see many surprises. in all those years from the 50's onwards.

A bit like the 77 final ! A bit like the 77 final a!

I must go now, if you would like to carry on this debate with facts and not opinions then we can carry on a bit later. But please do some research before hand so the facts are at hand for both to see.

You still don't get it do you. You're whole argument hangs on you're fact that the riders i mention would become average riders in this so called hard 1st division of today. Where the majority is made up of 2nd division riders I disagree with that statement Please prove otherwise. Please have the decency to answer all of my question, not just the bit what suits your argument. You do come across a lot of in you're posts as a very arrogant person who tries to use facts as an excuse, but you're facts are in fact your own opinions and as such, You cannot debate, without becoming a very annoyingly mr know it all. Please refrain from assuming you know everything about the sport. your replies it shows you certainly don't.

Would you not agree, It would be a lot easer to gain a higher average from 25 meetings in todays league setup than to attain the same average over 42 matches back in the day. With your Thinking riders like Alan Wilkinson, Gordon Kennett, Trevor Hedge etc. Would in your opinion soon become no better than Bombers of todays league? Very interesting analogy. But of course you know all the facts. Just like i'm still waiting to hear back from you regarding your comment you made earlier in the day i quote ' One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. I think the facts proved you wrong on that one. So please don't quote facts unless you can back them up. Theres a good boy.

Why the insult ? So lets look at the British League, Don't come back with ''I ment Polish league" Because you're argument is based on this country leagues. A 1st division which is made up of nearly all 2nd division riders. Must be so hard being a heat leader in todays tough format? Bet Ole.Ivan or PC would be shaking in there boots at the thought of having to race against bomber and co

but, how do you know there has only been two cases? There has been a few drug related problems as well over the last few years.

You forgot to add 'In you're opinion" Thats because as this thread has demonstrated. the debate can go on for ever about who is the best British rider. Of course and rightly so, but it does show it can still go on in the sport.

Team Monster last year in the last round? or does that not count

Why are you comparing Malcom Simmons to TW. How disrespectful. 'won a few medals" Its three more gold medals Than TW has won in a team event!! Of course back then The eastern block riders turned up on horse and carts and rode mopeds and the Swedes would share a bike between them and the Danes all had to ride Ole's hand me downs I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! At the end of the why can't we just all agree TW is the best rider in the GP series at this moment in time. As were Ivan, Ole, Rickardsson and Crump were when they became World Champions

I more relevant question would. What hasn't he won?

There has been enough GP's over the years that would fall into that category.