oldace

Have I read this correct. Is someone who steals a service telling a legitimate buyer he should be grateful for the service received If I was stealing my weekly shopping from Sainsbury's I would accept the odd out of date item in there, but as I pay for it, like 99% of the population, rest assured I voice my disattisfaction when something is amiss

Yes indeed. The pass on Jessup and Davis was something else, went into the bend not really looking a massive threat to pass either of them and came into the straight in front of them both, right the way around the outside. With having PC and Mort and the perfect stage for them to perform in Hyde Road we were certainly spoiled at Belle Vue in the 15 years prior to its demise Watch it here

The home number 3 (at Belle Vue invariably PC) met the away number 1 in heats 11 and 13. In heat 13 he was joined by the home number 5 (generall Mort in that era) so yes, it was never easy for a visiting number 1 to get a max at Belle Vue in that era. Teams often played about with line ups, Exeter were known to have Ivan at 2 to combat a team using a tac sub in an otherwise weak heat 8 if Exeter had built a 6 point lead. It does of course leave you vulnerable elsewhere but that was the art of team managing, a modern team manager is largely redundant to be honest, fixed gates, riders having to take certain positions in the team combine to give him no leeway at all

I would agree with that to be honest. Michanek was head and shoulders in 1973 and pretty darn good in 75. No league form to judge 1974 on but a World Title is a pretty good yardstick. Mort, for all his consistency in the early eighties at league level his lack of starting technique meant he was never a really serious contender for the big one

Not a bit early at all Phil. Crowds in Poland, for league racing have been falling for a few years now. It was once a relatively cheap day out for the Poles but now a league match, in real terms, is about the same as here and with the ongoing development in Poland the Poles are finding other things to spend their leisure dollar on. Their authorities made the same mistakes as here in believing you could afford a few lost fans by simply upping admission to the rest. Polish speedway is not just on the slippery slope but a good way down it

As you say, good by British standards but way down on the norm for Lezno a few years ago. Polish speedway is slowly replicating its British equivilent in that it is losing fans and upping admission costs to compensate and getting into the spiral that creates. The bubble of Polish speedway has already burst and a year or two will see it implode

And no doubt someone may quote this forum in the future as proof of Johnnie Hoskins outlandish claims, it is how the myth is perpetuated, people merely quote one unreliable source until it snowballs. I remember a year or two back, there was a scam going round that if you returned a call from a number beginning with 0704 you were connected to a service that was costing £100.00 for a few minutes, and you couldn't cut the call. Despite it having no substance, there are not even premium rates available costing that kind of money, everyone knew someone who had been affected, or knew someone who knew someone who had been affected. People repeating something they have read or heard without checking if there is any truth in it are how myths start, as time goes by they become almost accepted as truth because they have been quoted and requoted in numerous media outlets, it still doesn't make them true. No matter how many little quotes you may find re the invention of speedway it won't alter the truth that JSH is in no way responsible for inventing speedway

No one has tried to denigrate Johnnie Hoskins' achievements, people have merely tried to explain the truth to you rather than the myth that developed, largely on the back of the great man himself. Hoskins was a wonderful showman and did more than anyone in speedway early days but his claim to have invented the sport was always just typical Hoskins showmanship. It is the ones trying to credit Hoskins with this inventing speedway nonsense that are doing the man a disservice and causing debate like this. Accept Hoskins for what he did achieve, and those achievments are monumental but dont try and give him credit for something that is 100% not true

It was not carved in stone though as to who got moved. As Kevin says home grown riders were generally left alone but not always and Belle Vue suffered more than most in this respect. We lost Mauger to Exeter after the 1972 season, not home grown and foreign so no issues there. We the lost Chris Pusey to Halifax after 1974 who was both English and home grown by Belle Vue followed by Soren Sjosten to Birmingham after 1975 who although not English had been with the Aces for 13 years and was coming to the end of his career anyway, the move pretty well destroyed the rest of his career (well that coupled with a fondness for a beer or two). In theory the points limit was a better solution but there are, and always were, so many abuses of it

Thinking about it now, the no dead heats rule would have been back in the day when there was no race points, when 1st and 2nd progressed and 3rd and 4th dropped out. Race position determined which race a rider went into next so a dead heat was not possible. Now we are back to race points then there are no issues with dead heats

None of that is relevant to how long a meeting is dragged out for. Rarely does a league match have a two on the trot situation and any changes should not slow the programme down. A 23 heat GP has up to 6 two on the trot situations and even allowing for a lengthy interval, which for those present at the event isn't just dead time, is usually done in around 2.5 hours. A 15 heat League match often takes longer. in reality it should not require more than 5 mins per heat, barring bad accidents and a 15 heat match should be done and dusted in 1.5 hours allowing a 15 minute interval. The public are not fooled into thinking its better value by stringing it out for 2.5 hours

Or you could substitute it for this Tommy Knudsen - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at Wembley Stadium in September 1981. Both true, you have merely read into the statement incorrectly

It wouldn't apply. As someone already said, in the case of a dead heat the win (or second/third) would be given to the rider with the lowest race number, i.e Greg Hancock could not lose in a dead heat scenario and rider number 16 could not win

The history of the sport is indeed important, to people who are interested in it, and even then at the right place and time. A GP is not the place for these kind of things. We had it at Wembley in 1978, although that was done so badly as to be an embarrassment, we had it at Germany in 07. To a large chunk of the crowd they were merely old men who,s names they may have heard in passing. I go to a GP for the here and now, not for a history lesson A page in the programme is a more acceptable way of honouring past stars achievements

But Trees' husband "definitely expected" it to happen. Surely on that basis it should have happened. It could have been just like the German GP of 07 where a plethora of ex champs where wheeled out before the meeting, it was pointless and boring and only served to detract from the atmosphere in the stadium.

The old Premier League was traditionall only 6 team so always only gave 5 home meetings. The last few years it has been 7 teams then 8 now as the Elite League it is back to 7. East Park are still running but they are not, and have never been an Elite League team. They race in the Midland League

Last years Premier League has been re branded as the Elite League. The new Premier League was going to be a slightly lower level of racing but with only four teams who starting with Southampton followed by Hull pulled out leaving a two team league, this was scrapped with Birmingham accepting an invite to join the new Elite League. Leicester will have 6 home Elite League fixtures as well as their midland and local league stuff

I am not sure he was treated shabbily. He was told at the end of last season his services were no longer required, it isn't an unusual occurrance.

And you have there summed it up in a nutshell. Ricky Ashworth stayed at Sheffield because, even though the points money could have been better elswhere, he knew he could score a bagfull of points and earn a nice living, better than he could elsewhere. His loyalty was entirely to himself, not that there is anything wrong with that. Nowadays in particular dont be fooled into this great clubman mentality if a rider stays a few years at a certain track. It is purely because it is where he can earn the most money and that it sits nice with other commitments. Speedway riders, like all sportsmen these days, are simply hired hands who go where the best deal is

I think the legends and true greats of any era will live on long into the future. Of course people have their own favourites at any time and may list them in their own top ten at a given time but history will not remember these as true greats. Examples might be Ray Wilson or Martin Ashby from the seventies, chances are many fans of the time will consider them greats but unfortunately when the mist lifts and people are being judged on achievements alone, then history wont record them as true greats

I don't think you can class Craven as recent, he has been dead 50 years next year, Collins started his career over 40 years ago. You are totally correct in that these type of polls are weighted in favour of more modern eras, and anyway comparing greatness from one era to the next rarely works. It is probably fair to say Farndon was in the ascendancy at the time of the 1935 Star Riders Final and quite likely would have gone on to achieve great things

I am in no way trying to undermine Tom Farndon, merely pointing out that in those days the riders were still at the pioneer stage, riders would try the sport one week and be in a team the next. Farndon was of course among the very best of these pioneers, and may well have gone on to true greatness but I dont think you can compare someone from the very early days as a true great. It is all subjective though and if you think Farndon was the best ever who am I to argue. For me though I will stick with the two PCs and Mike Lee as the best Brits to date

Indeed he was but can anyone from that early in the sports existence be considered on of the best ever. The sport was still ony 6 or 7 years old in this country when Tom died and the skills required were still being honed by most. Tom was certainly among, or even was, the very best of the early thirties but the best of all time? no I am afraid not.

He wasn't underage but was still at grammar school and didn't want them to know of his speedway exploits

Phil the BARB figures (which I know are not entirely accurate) for speedway have dipped the last few years, nothing drastic but a downward trend all the same. It can possibly be accounted for as extra sports channels have become available and internet streaming (theft) is rife. British speedway has long been trying to fly in the face of the GP series when in reality it gave British speedway 3 hours of prime time advertising every other Saturday evening.