chunky

IF!!! IF!!! I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated? Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument. Think about it. If Penhall... If Carter... If Lee... If Sigalos... Even throw in : If Collins... If Sanders... Steve

Conjecture...

My exact point. It's incredible to think how ONE small change would have affected so much later. What if Peter Craven had broken the tapes in what turned out to be his final race? That affects the World Championship for years to come, not just the results, but even qualification, because we now have an extra person in the mix. Digressing slightly for a moment, here's the effect it has... I am sitting here writing this in Loveland, Ohio, because my dad's car wouldn't start - on the morning of March 15, 1971! Sounds crazy, doesn't it? Had the car started, he wouldn't have had to ride his motorbike to work, and he wouldn't have been hit by a car on the way home, smashing his leg. Had that not happened, he would have carried on playing cricket, would never have taken darts seriously and turned professional, and I would never have taken up darts as a career. Had I not played darts, I wouldn't have travelled to the US, and then moved here! Thing is, now think of what MIGHT have happened. I would have stayed in the UK. I could have been driving to a speedway meeting, and got in a car crash with, say, Gary Havelock in 1992. He might have been injured badly enough to stop him qualifying for the 1992 World Final. I know it sounds crazy, but one small change in my own personal history can have a monumental effect, not just on my life, but on the lives of others... Steve

I was there too, and I really can't argue with your assessment. In 50-plus years of watching speedway, I've seen some dominant performances, but Muller beats the lot... Steve

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday! While speculation can be fun, people get so focused on the "what ifs?, which mean absolutely nothing. History and fact is based on what DID happen, not what COULD have happened. Sure : 1)What if Peter Craven, Kenny Carter, Billy Sanders, Tommy Jansson, and Erik Gundersen hadn't had their careers ended so abruptly? 2) What if Peter Collins, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ronnie Moore, and Torbjorn Harrysson hadn't suffered their serious injuries? 3) What if Dave Jessup (throw in Gundersen and Carter in 1981 too) had been able to keep his bikes going for five World Final races? The answer to all of those is, "WE DON'T KNOW! Itt is all conjecture. Let's try to answer some of those, though... Craven and Moore carry on through the 1960's - maybe Mauger wouldn't have been World Champion from 1968 to 1970. Collins didn't break his leg in 1977, and Mauger would lose another title. Let's look at some other "what ifs?", and far from me being flippant, change just one small historical fact, and it can throw the future into total chaos. 1) What if Edward Jancarz had come to England a few years earlier? 2) What if Bruce Penhall hadn't retired? 3) What if Freddie Williams hadn't ridden for Wembley? 4) What if Ronnie Moore hadn't quit speedway for a while in order to race on four wheels? 5) What if Ivan Mauger had broken his arm when he fell in the run-off against Szczakiel? 6) What if David Biles and David Tyler hadn't decided to walk out on speedway? Could they have been World Champions? Conjecture, and it is what it is... Steve

Okay, in view of the distinctions stated, here are my three teams : All-Time Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Ronnie Moore Vic Huxley, Vic Duggan This is where it gets tough, but I will plump for Tommy Jansson and Split Waterman. At Their Peak Barry Briggs, Ronnie Moore, Vic Huxley Olle Nygren, Geoff Mardon Ron How, Tommy Jansson Those I Saw (for the Dons) Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, Olle Nygren Trevor Hedge, Tommy Jansson Edward Jancarz, Roger Johns (not as consistent as some of the others, but he put in some incredible rides). Steve

Yup, and Sverre broke his arm when Peter Murray took him off right in front of us... Funny, I saw on another thread where you said you were at the Lokeren Memorial Meeting, and I was there too! There was something special about Custom House (including the breeze coming off the river), and I do miss the place. Steve

Yeah, I was there for Christer's debut in 1970, when he scored 7 points in the main body of the team (which wasn't too strong). He maintained that form all year, and ended with a near 8-point average. His worst season was his last, at Hackney, and still averaged over 7 1/2. Steve

That's why it is laughable to see comments like "it's a lot easier to win a world title now", as if Woffinden has some kind of advantage. If it is easier for Tai, it is easier for everybody else. If it is tougher for Tai, it is tougher for everybody else. All the competitors in the same event pretty much go in with the same advantages and the same disadvantages, whatever system you use. Steve

Tough when you can't find a place for Hurri-ken! Steve

I would certainly class him as better than that clown Tomaszewski...

Didn't Nielsen refuse to ride for Denmark?

A candidate, certainly. However, it is difficult to prove when a rider doesn't have the titles, and greatest potential/natural ability doesn't mean the best. I am sure some will feel that Kenny Carter was the best. Supremely talented, but never made a World Final Rostrum. Same with Joe Screen. Steve

Three World Championships, plus a second and a third. More than any other British rider. In a six year period. A superb performance in the Speedway of Nations final. Far more impressive than PC's three WTC maximums against largely inferior opponents. I'm so sorry Tai didn't win the Internationale, Brandonapolis, Superama, Yorkshire TV Trophy, Golden Hammer etc... Steve

It wasn't as tough in 1978 - ie full of top riders - as it was in the 80's. At that point, Autrey was in a class of his own, and Steve Gresham was the next best. Penhall, Schwartz, Sigalos, the Morans, Preston, Cook etc, were still a a year or two away from British speedway - and world class. Steve

In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders. Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names. Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings? Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship. Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night. Steve

Winning a single GP is very different from winning a GP series over a whole season. Yes, there are anomalies within a GP system - as there are within most, if not all systems - but in order to become World Champion, a rider has to perform at a consistently high level. With the old World Finals, a rider could have one lucky night, and become World Champion. A rider could become World Champion after a small handful of meetings, only one or two of which would come close to including the majority of the "top 16" riders in the world. Steve

Absolutely! Scary when you see things like that... Steve

Glucklich was a decent rider on the international scene, but never showed any of that in the BL, and Johansson had a couple of brief stints a few years apart, without showing any form. Hammarberg and Ring (not Kling - there was also a Borje KLINGBERG at Eastbourne at another time) were never that great, and with a home track like Eastbourne, it would have been a big difference to Hyde Rd. Steve

Or Mark Loram counts as Maltese! Steve

Yeah, he came to Wimbledon in 1989, but only rode four matches for us. Good grasstracker, though... Steve

If a nation was actually a nation at the time (W. Germany, Czech Republic etc) then that counts. I know it's a strange situation with the UK, but to my knowledge, while the UK is the sovereign state, the UK has never been represented in international speedway competition! Do we ignore the individual nations of the UK. Do Scotland's appearances in official FIM events (WTC and pairs) not count? Are Simmo's hat-trick of golds and PC's World Cup Final maximums invalid? Are there any we have missed? Ukraine? I would think so there... Georgia? Steve

Both legitimate international organisations... Yeah, I know, both are suspect also!

Well now, did the UK lose to Croatia in the World Cup semis?

So too is Scotland; does that not count? Or England, for that matter. The sovereign state is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", and comprises four examples of a "country within a country", of which Northern Ireland is one. Steve