chunky

What is worrying is that so many people seem mathematically challenged these days. It's not just that they don't understand it, but because they don't understand it, they don't believe it. Simple mathematics is generally - well - simple! More than that, it tends to be consistent and reliable - until people start adding unnecessary variables. Without the variables, even though the actual answers may differ (and here, I did state that the example was extreme and unlikely - though not impossible) the concept and the processes used to reach that conclusion remain constant. That could be one of the reasons I love darts and speedway so much; they both revolve around numbers! Steve

Popularity means absolutely nothing now - and won't in the future as far as Wimbledon is concerned. Why is football so popular, yet is constantly slammed on the forum?

Hmmmm.. That would have sounded great on our version too!!! Steve

Not at all, but you constantly redirect threads about speedway to your love of cars - on a speedway forum...

Damn Steve Roberts, you read that quickly!!!

...and back to four wheels we go...

I believe you are correct...

As I said, I was being pedantic, and I was having a bit of fun too! Now, this is what I was talking about earlier... I love numbers and statistics, and I love logic, reason, and fact. This is pure logic, reason, and fact, and PROVES why averages drop when there are fewer teams and riders. Yes, it is extreme. No, it would never happen. However, it shows the effect. Riders can still ride at EXACTLY the same standard, but their averages will not reflect that. I know that Bwitcher and Orion will get this, and I think you will get it too. O hope Sidney will, but he has to stop letting opinion (without any logical grounds for justification) get in the way of fact. This isn't the first time I've done something like this, either! A while back, I PROVED that it was possible for a rider to win EVERY GP - yet still not finish in the Top eight of the GP standings at the end of the season! People still argue that I am wrong on that, but I have ABSOLUTE PROOF. Anyway... Here is an example – albeit extreme – of how fewer teams and riders can – and will – reduce averages. The thing to remember is that speedway averages are not only influenced by a rider’s own ability, but by the ability of those around him. Ability can only be judged compared to those averages around him (and in that particular format and numbers of teams and riders) – not by another rider’s 20 years earlier or 20 years later. As I said, this is extreme, nut it is the easiest way to prove things, particularly using the old 18-heat, 6-rider team format (but still using the 4-ride CMA – we can all relate to that). Now, the basics are : The league has 16 teams Top average rider rides at No.1, second highest at No.3, third highest at No.5, fourth highest at No.2, fifth highest at No.4, and sixth highest at No.6 No.1’s only drops points to HOME No.1 No.3’s only drop points to No.1’s and HOME No.3 No.5’s only drop points to No.1’s and No.3’s, and HOME No.5 And so on… This means that all matches will finish like this. HOME AWAY 1 – 3 3 3 3 3 3 – 18 1 – 2 3 3 2 3 3 – 16 2 – 1 1 1 1 1 1 - 6 2 - 0 1 1 0 1 1 - 4 3 – 3 2 3 3 2 3 – 16 3 – 2 3 2 2 3 2 – 14 4 – 1 0 1 1 0 1 - 4 4 – 0 1 0 0 1 0 - 2 5 – 3 2 2 3 2 2 – 14 5 – 2 2 2 2 2 2 – 12 6 – 1 0 0 1 0 0 - 2 6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 So, all riders at a particular number will finish with an identical average (and identical record), namely No.1 – 11.33, No.3 – 10.00, No.5 – 8.67, No.2 – 3.33, No.4 – 2.00, No.6 – 0.67. The following season, the league is reduced from 16 teams to 8, and all second strings drop down a division. The league is now much stronger, and consists of all the best riders. Each team in the new eight man league will consist of two old No.1’s, two old No.3’s, and two old No.’5’s. The old No.1’s will ride at 1 and 3, the old No.3’s will ride at 5 and 2, and the old No.5’s will ride at 4 and 6. All results finish exactly the same as the previous season, but look what happens... All No.1’s will again record an average of 11.33 All No.3’s (formerly No.1’s) will drop from 11.33 to 10.00 All No.5’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 8.67 All No.2’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 3.33 All No.4’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 2.00 All No.6’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 0.67 The riders are all riding at exactly the same level as the did the previous year, but they are simply facing top riders more often than they were, and that is the result of having fewer teams, fewer riders, and a more level playing field. You wanna talk about having fun??? Steve

Being even more pedantic, it doesn't matter whether the heat leaders are on track, or on paper. The thing to remember is that a seven man speedway team(certainly from years gone by) has three heat leaders, two second strings, and two reserves. The actual quality of each of those seven riders was irrelevant. Averages were pretty irrelevant too, as far as team makeup, except for the reserves - who had to be the lowest two averages in the team. Steve

Never knew that? There were TWO Dave Jessups who rode for Wimbledon! Steve

Hmmm... You beat me to it! Just waiting to see Sidney's response to that. I have a cunning plan, so watch this space, folks... Steve

Yeah, that was special - along with the sound of 'em revving under the green light!

Funny, isn't it? There are probably posters on the BSF who didn't even know he rode in the BL! Seriously, while he wasn't "great", he wasnt anywhere near as dire as most of the names mentioned on here... Steve

That is exactly why I didn't mention him; he has hardly been "forgotten! Steve

All of those have already been mentioned too! Steve

Remember, Doug, I did mention about the AMA Hall of Fame and museum just outside Columbus, Ohio. I still haven't been there yet, but it is only a couple of hours for me. I definitely need to get there this year! They have speedway and board-racing bikes and sections, and I don't know what else. I will let you all know when I have been... Steve

When I made that post about Wolves riders earlier, I was also thinking about Helminen and Frandsen...

Okay, thanks for the clarification! See, old age is catching up on me, but I knew it was something like that! I was at both too; thirty-five years ago - scary... Steve

At Wolverhampton, they tried Jerzy Kowalski (who tragically died after a crash later in 1978), Hans Christensen, and Knud Ellegard. Someone given a little more time at Monmore without really showing anything was Leif Berlin. Steve

Don't forget, Ernst Bogh also appeared for Leicester in 1976, along with Grzegorz Szczepanik and the almost-as-ineffective Pepe Teromaa. Again, I think Teromaa could have been okay given more time. Steve

Yeah, the Tigers have had their share of mediocrity over the years! Iris, you say you don't remember them? You may have blinked; they both had a British career that lasted a whopping two races! Jan Zabik was a little better; he averaged over 4, and managed a maximum. Steve

I honestly can't remember if it was three 5-1's in the last four heats, but you definitely got 5-1's in the last two! The next night, we came to Cowley and got a last-heat 5-1 to a draw! Steve

It is not a crusade against gustix; it is a crusade against stupidity and self-importance. It is difficult to get over it when he responds to a reaction with even more inanity... As I said, I have had my issues with iris. The thing with gustix is that he complains if others deviate all, but it's okay for him to hijack almost every thread and redirect to what he wants when it is invariably non-speedway related. I get it, I get under your skin. GET OVER IT... Steve

Again, how many times are you going to tell us that you haven't been to speedway since 2005? Your first sentence, however, does not qualify for inclusion on this thread; it references the FUTURE of British speedway - if indeed there is one... Steve

Just thought of another one - and it's another Eastbourne one : Rene Christiansen. A 1.93 average from ten meetings in 1983... Steve