lucifer sam
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Posts posted by lucifer sam
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No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.)
The ref (Transpurger) allowed shocking starts throughout both the 1972 and 1973 finals - he basically released the tapes as the final rider came up to them. Mauger himself used to his advantage at Wembley in 1972.
I'm not sure why it suddenly becomes "the biggest stitch up in speedway history" when it's Szczakiel who gets a flier rather than Mauger.
Fair play to Szczakiel who was the best rider.... on the day. The "dodgy" heats (the Poles orchestrating a win for Plech, plus the bizzare shennanings of Heat 19) did not involve Szczakiel, who earned all 13 of his points. In his fourth race, the Russian pushed Szczakiel to the back, but he fought back from fourth to second place.
Szczakiel outfoxed Mauger and beat him TWICE in the same World Final.
To highlight just one race where there was a dodgy start in the '72-'73 finals demonstrates you haven't watch the full coverage of these finals. If so, you'd have seen a number or riders using them to their advantage. Szczakiel beat Mauger at his own game... and deserves credit for that. From reading Mauger's autobiography, he has no axe to grind with Szczakiel.
All the best
Rob
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It's questionable whether the Poles in 1973 were "seeded" or were "qualifiers".
There was actually a qualifying criteria. Not an actual meeting, but based on results over a period. Szczakiel was fifth of the five Poles who qualified based on results. The Polish authorities weren't sure, and nearly replaced him, but in the end, stuck firm with the way they had worked out their five qualifiers... and the rest is history.
Every final between 1965 and 1980 had riders from the home nation go directly to the final. The British Final was effectively a World Semi-Final in the years that Wembley held the final.
All the best
Rob
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Where did those races take place though, I would hazard a guess Szcackiel's wins were all behind the iron curtain?
I don't know why you've got an obsession on races behind the Iron Curtain being so difficult. The western riders may have been intimidated to begin with, but then Mauger winning in 1970 and the Brits winning the WTC in '71 in Poland altered the situation. By the time Szczakiel won in '73, the westerners already knew they could go to Poland and win.
Szczakiel would have had very little "home" advantage at Katowice (he rode for Opole), but he simply proved to the best rider on the day. Remember again he didn't beat Mauger once that day... he did it twice. Almost all the big names of the day were in the '73 final, but Szczakiel went out and beat almost all of them. He was the best rider on that particular day.
All the best
Rob
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Twice in the 60s the Poles finished ahead of GB when the final wasn't in Poland and not once in the seventies
Keep trying!!!!!
The Poles won the World Team Cup in the 1960s OUTSIDE of their own country... we didn't, even borrowing the likes of Briggs, Moore and Mauger. That's the point I was making. I didn't mention the seventies, just the sixties...
I've had a bit of a google about and found an interesting statistic. The head-to-head between Mauger and Szczakiel between 1971 and 1973.... Mauger 7, Szczakiel 6. That's a fine record against the best rider in the world at the time.
All the best
Rob
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You must remember that back in the seventies the East European tracks were alien to anything the western riders were used to and it made the Poles seem miles better than they really were. Rather like Exeter used to be over here, very mediocre riders could appear world beaters round the county ground but not anywhere else, if there had been a world final at Exeter in the mid 80s and seeded 5 home riders it is not inconceivable that one would have won, it wouldnt make them world class though
So how come the Poles did much better than Great Britain in the World Cup during the 1960s - not just in Poland, but other countries too. Many the Poles were better than you give them credit for.
Mid 80s at Exeter? So you're saying Colin Cook or Alan Rivett could have been World Champion? Give over.
And was Katowice Szczakiel's home track??? I thought he came from Opole.Szczakiel is obviously a far better rider than a lot of people give him credit for. It's a shame so many have an arrogant attitude of "Well he never rode for a British League club, so he can't be any good."
All the best
Rob
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With respect Rob you are young and going off things you have read and seen in books and such. As someone around at the time trust me Szcackiel was very lucky to win. As well as being gifted 5 places, as hosts everything possible was done to favour the Poles, albeit Plech was really the chosen one bur blew it. He was simply a journeyman who had his best match ever combined with the dice being loaded in his favour and the sport ended up with a laughing stock world champion, although in Ians mind this is how he would like it to be once again
Actually going by a video of the meeting. And Szczakiel was flying. Give a bit of a credit where's it due.
All the best
Rob
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Then he cites 1973 as how it should be with 5 riders not there on merit and one of those who was nowhere near world class getting a lucky win.
While there are huge flaws in TWK's logic, I would point out that Szczakiel's win wasn't lucky. He scored 13 points out of 15 (including a win over Mauger in Heat 8), and then beat Mauger in a run-off, even outfoxing Mauger at this own speciality, getting a flier at the start. That's not lucky.
Szczakiel was the best rider on that particular day - two wins over Ivan Mauger are testament to that.
All the best
Rob
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This is why the SS is such a quick thing to read. Most of the stuff in it is old news by the time you get to read it.
It was actually in last week's Star (they broke the story), and then appeared on here afterwards. So it was the forum which was old news.
All the best
Rob
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Tapping up, though, isn't my point here. I have listed below a couple of quotes you have made earlier in this thread and presume they are reflective of the Scunthorpe promotions view:
'The National League is a training league. If each team is bringing in two new 3.00 riders each season, the points limit is about right, although I'd like to see it reduced to 36 or 38.
Where things go wrong is when clubs start to push up the costs to going all-out to win.
The National League is first and foremost a training ground. Any team success is just a bonus'.
Accepting for a moment that team strengths at the time were based upon averages not gradings, what I am asking myself is whether the Scunthorpe promotion would have advocated such a position at the start of 2006 or 2007, or would they have supported or endorsed it if it had been made by another club ?. Would they have agreed that their young, capable and attractive team could have been torn apart due to the points limit, or that they could not introduce PL riders when the strength of their team was reduced due to injury ? Would they have actively supported the position of Buxton or Sittingbourne that pay rates had to be the agreed NL ones and nothing above ?
I think its absolutely clear that in 2006 & 2007 they would have objected (possibly violently) to the position you have stated and therein lies the double standard. When it suits Scunny to have super strength teams, pay over NL rates and go all out to win, its acceptable. When it doesn't, it isn't.
HT, I see. But you made a big assumption that my views were those of the Scunthorpe promotion. If that was the case, I would have said so.
The views of the Scunny promotion are those on the BSPA website / Scunthorpe website and there is nothing about team strengths on there.
As for the economic climate, well the whole country is in a different situation to 2006/2007. In case you hadn't noticed, we're in the middle of a great big recession. Scunny were never the biggest payers in the first place, but there's a good argument for the whole league to tighten its belts. Dudley and Mildenhall are probably OK, but to help the likes of Scunny, Buxton, King's Lynn and Rye House, a rigid pay structure would help. After all, for Dudley to thrive, ideally they also need the other teams in the league to be thriving as well. At the end,of the day, Dudley are always going to end up as one of the strongest teams in the league, and this isn't a problem - and the amount of away supporters they take is a boost to other tracks. Dudley and their vocal and large support are a good thing for the National League.
But the situation where the standalone teams can pick from the cream of those riding for the second teams needs to stop, or otherwise the second teams simply won't bother to run, because you're taking away their main purpose - to develop riders for the senior team. You have to remember that any club running two teams is currently taking a double-hit during the recession - so there needs to be good reasons to continue running two different teams. The National League membership has shrunk in recent seasons from 13 in 2003/2004 to just 8 in 2012, largely due to the disappearance of most of the second teams.
The National League has always been a compromise between teams with different agendas, but currently that balance is not quite right. Good luck to all the teams running in the National League next season, but I do wonder if measures are still needed to ensure the long-term survival of what is a crucial league to British Speedway, as it is the training ground to the leagues above.
And these views are my own.
All the best
Rob
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HT, there's no doubt of the strength of the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions. However, they were not the biggest payers in the league, and the riders were not "poached" from other teams, as Ben Hopwood was from Oxford by a south-western team. The strength of the Scunny side merely took advantage of the low grades given to younger riders at that point.
You're implying there's a big double standard here. If so, please could you name the rider who Scunthorpe pinched off another club in either 2006 or 2007. Thanks.
All the best
Rob
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What is especially galling is that they whine on about win at all cost teams and paying over the odds for riders. Mildenhall and Dudley were strong this season, but the Scunthorpe sides of 2006 & 2007 that were packed with PL riders would have torn them apart and there's no doubt that those riders were paid over basic NL pay too. Basically its a case of don't do as I did, do as I say.
HT, for someone so knowledgement about the sport, you do talk complete rot at times.
Oxford were still about in 2007, so I do know various bits from behind the scenes at that time. Scunny were not the big payers; instead it was a south-west based team. The Cheetahs closed for four weeks during the summer, and when we re-opened, we found Ben Hopwood had been poached by this south-western team, who paid him double the wages (and Oxford themselves were not paying minimum wages). Not that I have any problem with Ben; I had a chat with his dad later that season and I told him I could completely understand his and Ben's position because it was an offer they simply couldn't afford to turn down.
Scunny's powerful team for 2006 and 2007 was eventually full of PL riders, but it didn't start that way. They took on Josh Auty, Tai Woffinden and Joe Haines from scratch, Andrew Tully came from the Dale Devils after that team folded, etc. I can't remember the Scorpions going around other teams and pinching their riders - correct me if I'm wrong.
At one point, Allen Trump wanted to put something in the Speedway Star berating Scunny after a Bronze Helmet challenge saw Danny Betson ending up going solo in the race, but I persuaded him not to, telling him Scunny are "the good guys", having built up a very strong side, but having almost done it from scratch. As it was, we were already involved in a war of words with the south-west team (the south-west team got up to all sorts of tricks - they were "the bad guys") and we didn't need to likewise engage Scunny.
Please don't try to rewrite history, I would expected more of you than that.
All the best
Rob
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Dear oh dear. Don't you think every club, and many defunct clubs, would love to be able to offer training facilities, amateur league, NL and PL/EL if possible? I mentioned Stoke because it too is a stand-alone club in the NL and didn't Birks learn his trade at Scunny? If every club but those with training facilities closed tomorrow where would all the riders that would have filled positions in those clubs' team ride?
Quite how acknowledging the sport is stumped without the like of Scunny, and I'll add that I'm really rather envious of the set-up the club has, could be considered arrogant I really don't know. Surely it would have been arrogant had I said something like "Well we're al right, we don't need Scunny." but my feeling is quite the opposite. We, the sport in this country, desperately need clubs like Scunny and the sooner it is back in the NL the better.
That's a much better post. 21st CH, just read your own previous post again. Whether you meant it or not, it read that the likes of Scunthorpe, Buxton and KL were there simply to service Dudley.
And Ashley Birks was a totally different matter. He'd already graduated to the Scunny PL team, so it made sense for him to ride for different PL & NL tracks last season.
Good luck to Max Clegg, a smashing kid with a lot of talent.
Meanwhile, the gulf between team in the NL needs sorting out. Yes, this league always has been a compromise between the "second teams" and the "standalones", but there should be greater protection towards the "second teams", because there aren't enough "standalones" if the second teams plus Buxton all pulled out. The standalone clubs should not be able to go and choose from the pick of the riders developed by the second teams - there needs to be something put in place to prevent this from happening again.
All the best
Rob
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All the clubs at all levels need each other to survive. Few, if any, clubs can cover all the bases from someone wobbling around for the first time to becoming a world champion. For example, take Heathens and Stoke out of the NL and overnight there will be 14 riders out of speedway for the coming year. Take the like of KL, Buxton and Scunny out of the NL and where are the riders going to come from to ride for the like of Heathens and Stoke? Each club plays a role in one way or another and all require the others.
Unbelievable arrogance.
And don't try to drag Stoke into this...
The purpose of the National League is to train riders for the Premier League and Elite League, not for other National League teams. No wonder British Speedway is an international backwater. We need to get our superstars of the future into the top leagues.
All the best
Rob
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I just withdrew a post as it was rightly objectionable, and possibly offensive.
Yes, I did see it before it went
EC and Villers are right - any arguments are pointless.
It does show that the National League does need to get its house in order, and sort out what exactly it is about (IMO a training league), and there also needs to be better protection towards the teams that have developed their own riders.
All the best
Rob
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What a load of twaddle, which stems mostly from jealousy...
Yeah right. Jealous? What of? What have you won?
This is a thread about Scunthorpe Saints, so please can all the gloating Dudley fans please vacate it, before I say something I might regret at a later date.
All the best
Rob
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Disgraceful they have not beenm tapped or spken to by Stoke
Lets see who they join
Malcolm Vasey
Well Malcolm, I'm sure one of the teams in question wouldn't be daft enough to announce the signing on the very same day that the Saints announce their withdrawal... or would they?
All the best
Rob
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National league professional....your having a laugh arnt you bwd???.the nl always was a training league...now it seems to be lacking any real purpose or direction.
That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the purpose of the National League? For me, it is a stepping stone to bigger things. It's there to produce riders for the Premier League and Elite League.
Where things go wrong is when clubs start to push up the costs to going all-out to win. The way to win the National League is by developing your own riders; not to take them from elsewhere.
All the best
Rob
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I think the daft low points limit is also to blame as much as anything for the problems some clubs may have. It's staggering to think that even KL cannot keep the same 1-7. Only IOW can strengthen for next season. How do you 'sell' to you fans, potential new fans and sponsors that a team struggling in 2012 must be made weaker for 2013? There's not enough continuity or growth.
Talk about missing the point. The National League is a training league. If each team is bringing in two new 3.00 riders each season, the points limit is about right, although I'd like to see it reduced to 36 or 38.
The top riders in the NL should be moving into the PL each season, leaving the bottom five in the team plus two new youngsters for the following year.
The National League is first and foremost a training ground. Any team success is just a bonus.
All the best
Rob
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Little bit of bitterness there June. You lost a Team, but still have a Team and a Track, maybe you should be asking the question, why you have lost a Team ?, another 100 or so watching NL racing at Scunny would have solved it Im sure, look closer to home my dear. Yes Im sorry to see any Team fail to run.... but the NL,s woes goes far deeper.
That's a rather condescending post.
All the best
Rob
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nearly went round Johnson lol....he must be quick then
The point being it is the final race of the night (Heat 19 in total), so the track had lost much of its bite, but it doesn't stop Ryan Douglas on a borrowed bike having a bit of a charge around the outside.
All the best
Rob
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I saw Ryan Douglas ride in a Swindon v Oxford second half last year (although as the Oxford team manager, I would have preferred he hadn't, because thanks to him, Swindon beat us
).He came in at late notice for Swindon, I think he was on a borrowed bike, and he scored 11 points out of 12, dropping his only point whilst taking his fourth ride in 4 races. He nearly went around Brendan Johnson with a brave move in Heat 4. He looked fast, with plenty of courage, which is ideal for riding at Scunny.
All the best
Rob
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Not long now to find out the complete team of the defending Premier League Champions.
All the best
Rob
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FULL 2013 SCORPIONS LINE-UP TO BE ANNOUNCED TONIGHT
HENDERSON INSURANCE Scunthorpe Scorpions, the defending Premier League Champions, will announce their full team for the 2013 season this evening (Sunday, November 18th).
The Scorpions were going to announce one name, but are now in a position to reveal the whole septet.
Promoter Rob Godfrey said: “I don’t wish to give the game away and ruin the big announcement this evening.
“But I think our supporters are going to be delighted once they see our 2013 line-up, as we strive to become the first ever team to retain the Premier League trophy.”
The full Scorpions team will appear on the official Scunthorpe Speedway website (www.scunthorpescorpions.co) at 9pm this evening.
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Great to see Edinburgh saved for 2013.
All the best
Rob
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2013 Best Ever Gp Line Up?
in Speedway Grand Prix and Speedway World Cup
Posted
I didn't realise Jerzy Szczakiel was German.
The ref of the '73 was Transpurger - also the ref of the '72 final (when Mauger took advantage of a rolling start or two). He was German. Szczakiel was Polish.
All the best
Rob