BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Using the weakest of riders in world final history doesn't mean the riders who won the meetings didn't deserve them. I mean, what about all the riders who didn't make the finals due to the lob-sided qualifying system back then? It was hard enough getting through the British Final and we had no Scott Nicholls able to take the title six or seven times, the line-up being that poor. As I said, I prefer to go on other aspects other than a rider pulling his all out in the top events. If it were a GP system in the 70s, imagine the top 16 riders in the field compared to now. I also raise the British League averages and the amount of 10-point men back then, but BWitcher would rather harp on about riders picking their own gates back then or team being full of journeymen. Here we go again. We're back to all the 10pt superstars of the day argument which is THE MOST IRRELEVANT argument there can possibly be as it is COMPLETELY based upon the size of the league and the heat format used. Based on your argument the 1995 and 1996 merged league was by far the strongest in the last 30 years. Packed full of 9-10pt men. How hard really was the British Final to get through for actual genuine contenders? How many times did Peter Collins, Mike Lee, Dave Jessup for example fail to get through out of interest? Edited October 16, 2018 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Name them. Here's some (all within my 50+ years of spectating)! Brian Brett, Peter Craven, Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Terry Betts, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg, Malcolm Simmons, John Louis, Dave Jessup, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum And before you ask, by gold medals I meant World Individual Speedway titles, those things which Tai has more of (3) than the others It was common place for riders to maintain their bikes themselves, or with the help of a mechanic - a far cry from what Tai has at his disposal 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Here's some (all within my 50+ years of spectating)! Brian Brett, Peter Craven, Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Terry Betts, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg, Malcolm Simmons, John Louis, Dave Jessup, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum And before you ask, by gold medals I meant World Individual Speedway titles, those things which Tai has more of (3) than the others It was common place for riders to maintain their bikes themselves, or with the help of a mechanic - a far cry from what Tai has at his disposal Oh dear god. Once again you put forward an argument that actually only serves to counter what you are saying but is of course completely irrelevant. What has Tai got 'at his disposal' that other riders do not? Absolutely nothing. It isn't common cry anymore for riders to maintain their bikes themselves, meaning it's a darn sight harder to get an advantage in that area as there are far more professional organised riders around.. compared to the past when the elite such as Mauger had a distinct advantage in their preparation. Well done on highlighting how much easier it was back in the day As for your list of riders, you should try stand up comedy. We're now expected to believe Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum and others are better than Woffinden? There is one rider who makes the conversation, thats Peter Craven. The rest don't come into it. Edited October 16, 2018 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) I bet the boys from the 60s, 70s and even 80s wish they could race on today's super-smooth tracks helped with all those gizmo additions to the bike that only add to make it like a Sunday afternoon snooze on the armchair, but also without the worry of falling off the seat and into a rock-solid fence and not a bouncy castle airfence like today. Yes, I can understand why today's riders would appear to be better prepared. they have it so easy. But I admire any rider, from all eras. Edited October 16, 2018 by moxey63 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,092 Posted October 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Yes, I can understand why today's riders would appear to be better prepared. they have it so easy. But it is not "easier" when all their opponents are similarly prepared... Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, moxey63 said: Using the weakest of riders in world final history doesn't mean the riders who won the meetings didn't deserve them. I mean, what about all the riders who didn't make the finals due to the lob-sided qualifying system back then? It was hard enough getting through the British Final and we had no Scott Nicholls able to take the title six or seven times, the line-up being that poor. As I said, I prefer to go on other aspects other than a rider pulling his all out in the top events. If it were a GP system in the 70s, imagine the top 16 riders in the field compared to now. I also raise the British League averages and the amount of 10-point men back then, but BWitcher would rather harp on about riders picking their own gates back then or team being full of journeymen. You want 10+ riders? Simple. Merge the two leagues and use exactly the same ridrrs as rode in the UK this year and have a race format where the number ones meet only once. All of a sudden, the likes of Josh Bates and Stefan Nielsen become third heatleaders. So most number ones are nailed on 10 point riders. It doesn't make the league any stronger. It would actually be weaker teams than we have now. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, moxey63 said: I bet the boys from the 60s, 70s and even 80s wish they could race on today's super-smooth tracks helped with all those gizmo additions to the bike that only add to make it like a Sunday afternoon snooze on the armchair, but also without the worry of falling off the seat and into a rock-solid fence and not a bouncy castle airfence like today. Yes, I can understand why today's riders would appear to be better prepared. they have it so easy. But I admire any rider, from all eras. Yet riders such as Tatum say how much harder the modern machine is to ride. So again, your argument fails you and strengthens that which you are arguing against. Edited October 16, 2018 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: Oh dear god. Once again you put forward an argument that actually only serves to counter what you are saying but is of course completely irrelevant. What has Tai got 'at his disposal' that other riders do not? Absolutely nothing. It isn't common cry anymore for riders to maintain their bikes themselves, meaning it's a darn sight harder to get an advantage in that area as there are far more professional organised riders around.. compared to the past when the elite such as Mauger had a distinct advantage in their preparation. Well done on highlighting how much easier it was back in the day As for your list of riders, you should try stand up comedy. We're now expected to believe Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum and others are better than Woffinden? There is one rider who makes the conversation, thats Peter Craven. The rest don't come into it. Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MARK246 243 Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects What I would say is I'm glad I watched speedway when I did from 1967, there is little to excite anyone now in the sport. The Word Champion rides at my home club next season, another reason not to go. 30 pages and I still wouldnt cross the road to watch him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted October 16, 2018 I would suggest that if you don't enjoy watching Woffy, Zmarzlik,Emil or the likes of Bewley and Lambert, then the issue isnt that the riders are not as exvitimg as they used to be but that you no longer enjoy the sport. Which then baffles me as to why you would spend time on a speedway forum. My favourite riders will always be Ross, Mort, PC, Smudger and the Moran brothers. But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the riders of today. I'm sure Bewitcher would argue that Ermolenko is the most exciting rider of all time. But he's not going to argue that that makes modern riders dull, or that Ronnie Correy was better than Greg Hancock 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 36 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects Here we go again. I have not stated any opinion. It is not a matter to have an opinion on. A range of averages is determined by the size of league and the heat format used. No opinion is involved. If you really don't understand that after it's been explained multiple times then the mind boggles.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, MARK246 said: What I would say is I'm glad I watched speedway when I did from 1967, there is little to excite anyone now in the sport. The Word Champion rides at my home club next season, another reason not to go. 30 pages and I still wouldnt cross the road to watch him. But you keep coming onto a forum to post about him. I guess you don't realise how stupid that makes you look! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, waiheke1 said: I would suggest that if you don't enjoy watching Woffy, Zmarzlik,Emil or the likes of Bewley and Lambert, then the issue isnt that the riders are not as exvitimg as they used to be but that you no longer enjoy the sport. Which then baffles me as to why you would spend time on a speedway forum. My favourite riders will always be Ross, Mort, PC, Smudger and the Moran brothers. But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the riders of today. I'm sure Bewitcher would argue that Ermolenko is the most exciting rider of all time. But he's not going to argue that that makes modern riders dull, or that Ronnie Correy was better than Greg Hancock Woah Woah Woah, steady on here! All modern riders are dull compared to Sudden Sam.. and as for Hancock being compared to Rocket Ronnie, Greg isn't fit to clean his boots 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted October 16, 2018 52 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects It's not an opinion is a fact ..I think it's been explained to the older fan a million times but they can't quite grasp it . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted October 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Woah Woah Woah, steady on here! All modern riders are dull compared to Sudden Sam.. and as for Hancock being compared to Rocket Ronnie, Greg isn't fit to clean his boots That's just because you're argumentative, always right and won't let anyone else have an onion. FACT 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
