Third Chance?

[Subedei 0]

Scott Nicholls, Hans Andersen, Lee Richardson and Ryan Sullivan were all gifted a second chance in the GPs this season. A second chance to prove their worth, after failing to hit the auntomatic qualification criteria last season. And this season they've failed again. Do they deserve a third chance in 2006?

The Mongol says NO. They're serial failures and should be sent packing. Everyone deserves a second chance and they've had theirs.

[AndyM 1]

Me, I say the only way to prove who is worthwhile is on the track and not at the behest of some back room selection process known only to those involved. That way lies corruption and evil doing. Speedway has a fine tradition of being equal and above board, and so it should stay for GP qualification. All four of those riders should demonstrate their right to take part in a qualification meeting, fair and square.

[norbold 7,179]

Couldn't agree more, Andy.

[iris123 21,110]

Tough one.Without some sort of qualifier how do you sort out who gets in.Personally the top 8 thing hasn't worked because of Hampels injury.He would have finished in the top 8,which would have meant Jonsson finishing outside of the automatic places.Also take away Bydgoszcz and does Gollob really deserve automatic seeding For me the only ones that really deserve seeding into the GP's next year are TRick,Crump,Adams,Nicki,Greg,Bjarne and Jarek.Would like to see the rest in some quali meeting or 2.As that isn't going to happen.How many can you get rid of and still keep a high standard.Who comes in in their place.Can Zagar do anything outside of Krsko?Would Bjerre bring much to the GP's.Iversen i thought did well in Copenhagen and was unlucky not to get further.Can say in their defence,if Nicholls,Richardson,etc had a GP on their favourite track like Gollob has then maybe they would be in the top 8 as well.If Richardson isn't in there really isn't a British rider than can do as well or better.Think Ryan shouldn't be in next year,if only to give him a chance to recupperate.

[Subedei 0]

Well, we are where we are. There isn't going to be a qualification meeting.

Jonsson and Hampel were in the top 8 last year and deserve a second chance. But Nicholls, Richardson, Sullivan and Andersen were shown charity this season. Another chance to succeed. But they failed.

[HenryW 1,178]

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. When I travel to see a GP, what I really want to see are the 16 best riders racing in it. The wildcard allows for track specialists, so you are then looking at the 15 best.

Qualifiers don't provide the top riders due to the vagaries of the one off nature of the qualifying meetings. As long as the best riders are selected for the other positions, I am happy.

 

As for whether the riders Subedei listed deserve another chance, I would say that they do as long as they are consistently showing themselves to be in the top 15 in the World. I see no reason for pushing a rider out just because he finishes between 9th and 15th in the series if he is clearly better in other competitions than the riders that are outside the series.

 

So, just for the sake of it, I will list who I think are the best 15 riders in the World. There is nothing scientific to my choices, just a gut feel from looking at the various riders results in the major leagues.

 

Leigh Adams, Hans Andersen, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Jarek Hampel, Greg Hancock, Rune Holta, Andreas Jonsson, Peter Karlsson, Scott Nicholls, Bjarne Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Piotr Protasiewicz, Tony Rickardsson, Ryan Sullivan

 

Absolutely no chance of that being the GP field for next year though.

[AndyM 1]

The point is whether these should be arbitrarily selected. We could all come up with our own top 15, Henry, and between us we might name 20 or more riders. Why should BSI or anyone else be entitled to play God? Isn't it better than the riders show they are better on track, even if that means one or two fancied names get knocked out in the process. After all, the best 15 are those that score most points where it matters!

[HenryW 1,178]

I agree that I would prefer to see the riders for the series decided on the track but, as I say, the one off qualifiers just don't cut it for a place in a GP series.

 

Basically a whole lot of good speedway was wasted by having the two qualifiers in the series this year, and I mean as little disrespect as possible to the two guys who got in, but they just weren't ready for this level of competition over the course of this season.

 

Maybe BSI could offer places based on averages in the 3 major speedway leagues. Tell riders that they have to race in at least two of the leagues to be considered and their best two averages are taken into account to get the riders for the next season.

That would mean that it was really decided on the track over the course of a whole season...A perfect solution in my mind, but I can't quite see them buying into that idea!

[AndyM 1]

But there's the world of difference between the GP circus and league averages - even assuming all the best riders choose to ride in all the Euro leagues anyway (eg. several from your list don't ride in the EL.) Head-to-head is the only way, be that over several meetings or a one-off sudden death clincher.

 

In any case, selecting riders who you consider to be the "best" by whatever devious or arcane process means you're almost certain to miss the form horses - those who have come up through the ranks quickly, which is after all what we want. Of the riders who you select now, several are likely to be going through a dodgy patch by next year and may not be worthy of their place.

Edited September 12, 2005 by AndyM

[Subedei 0]

The thing is, I believe the GPs are now a huge step up in class and unless we start getting new riders in, they've never going to make it. I wouldn't be surprised if next season doesn't see 6, 7 or even 8 of the current top 8 in the top 8 again. Hampel has the best chance of those outside to get inside.

Time for a secondary series?

[AndyM 1]

Too costly to run.

[HenryW 1,178]

But there's the world of difference between the GP circus and league averages - even assuming all the best riders choose to ride in all the Euro leagues anyway (eg. several from your list don't ride in the EL.)  Head-to-head is the only way, be that over several meetings or a one-off sudden death clincher.

I agree that the standard of competition is very different between GP and League meetings, but the best riders in the World do tend finish at the top of the league averages.

I did actually suggest in my original post taking the riders form from only two leagues, so if they choose miss one out, that would be fine

 

In any case, selecting riders who you consider to be the "best" by whatever devious or arcane process means you're almost certain to miss the form horses - those who have come up through the ranks quickly, which is after all what we want.  Of the riders who you select now, several are likely to be going through a dodgy patch by next year and may not be worthy of their place.

Indeed you are right, but how does that differ from holding qualifying rounds? Those have to be held the year before as well.

The wildcard place is there for "home track heros" and "form horses".

[Subedei 0]

There is nothing scientific to my choices, just a gut feel from looking at the various riders results in the major leagues.

 

Leigh Adams, Hans Andersen, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Jarek Hampel, Greg Hancock, Rune Holta, Andreas Jonsson, Peter Karlsson, Scott Nicholls, Bjarne Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Piotr Protasiewicz, Tony Rickardsson, Ryan Sullivan

 

Not sure what Hampel's form is like in Sweden, but it seems to have been pretty poor in Poland this season. In fact, he's only 18th in the Polish averages, only one place above Chrzanowski.

[AndyM 1]

The wildcard is irrelevant since no wildcard entry can become world champion - and the beauty of the old one-off championship was that it did throw up some unlikely qualifiers and even winners on occasion. That will (almost) never happen with the GP circus, though I know that's not what we're discussing now!

 

Put simply, selecting riders by any process will almost never mirror a series of qualification events, because unexpected things happen in real life. And so it should be! If you select the same batch of riders year in, year out, on the grounds that they just happen to be top of the league averages, the sport will never move on and enable new superstars to be created. Do you think PC would have won the championship at 22 with this bureaucratic tangle?

[HenryW 1,178]

...the beauty of the old one-off championship was that it did throw up some unlikely qualifiers and even winners on occasion.  That will (almost) never happen with the GP circus, though I know that's not what we're discussing now!

Maybe that's why you and I disagree on this discussion, because we disagree on something as fundametal as this.

I want to see the best speedway rider in the World crowned as World Champion. You obviously don't view that as the priority.

 

Put simply, selecting riders by any process will almost never mirror a series of qualification events, because unexpected things happen in real life.  And so it should be!  If you select the same batch of riders year in, year out, on the grounds that they just happen to be top of the league averages, the sport will never move on and enable new superstars to be created.  Do you think PC would have won the championship at 22 with this bureaucratic tangle?

Am I missing something? Are league meetings not taking place in real life?

The league averages don't stay the same from year to year. If a young rider is good enough to contend for the World title, he will be good enough to deliver week in week out in the much easier league events. If someone isn't good enough to be a top rider in the league, he certainly shouldn't be a contender for World Champion, IMHO.

I think that with his league form PC would have been in the series in 1976. Whether he would have been able to win over a 9 round series is another matter.

Of course, I think that had BSI been doing their picking back in '76 they would have had him in anyway!

 

BTW : Subedei, I think last time I checked Jarek was running around a 9 point average in Sweden, but I could be wrong.