1982 World Final.

[Harvey 0]

[Not as much as the man who should have won it Les Collins]

 

...I'm glad someone still has one-eye on the real traversty of the 1982 World Final. All the talk then & now is of Penhall v Carter. Yet, Les Collins came so close that night...and interesting to note that in the famous race it was Peter Collins leading, taking points off both Juicy Brucie and Kenny to help Les's cause.

[star ghost 7]

Regarding the "were Wembley Finals fair to all" angle ...........

Maybe Tommy Price & Fred Williams (twice) were Wembley riders but then Jack Young (twice, including as a 2nd Division rider) was not. Also Jack Parker and Vic Duggan, though not World Finals in name, still took honours at Wembley. Then along came Peter Craven, Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs and Ove Fundin to win the titles without being Wembley riders.

When World Champions were crowned in the past they had to fight through a number of rounds before the Final. Nowadays they only need "inviting" to get a chance of topping the title-race.

[BOBBATH 467]

Fair enough starghost-but Wembley closed down before Briggs won his first title in 1957.I agree with what you say but I still think the Price and Williams championships might not be worth as much as the Young,Moore,Craven et al. who had to beat Wembley riders on their home track-not sure Price or Williams would have won on an away track.

[Shoddy 1]

[Not as much as the man who should have won it Les Collins]

 

...I'm glad someone still has one-eye on the real traversty of the 1982 World Final. All the talk then & now is of Penhall v Carter. Yet, Les Collins came so close that night...and interesting to note that in the famous race it was Peter Collins leading, taking points off both Juicy Brucie  and Kenny to help Les's cause.

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I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut.

 

Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then. Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall.

 

If Carter came second and Penhall third then Kenny would have been a point ahead with the pair of them still to meet. Collins would then have still had to beat Carter twice to win the title.

 

Had Penhall and Carter not been playing silly buggers anyway they would almost certainly have beaten Peter Collins. Has things worked out differently Collins may have had a shot at the title but to say he should have won it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

We had this whole discussion before and the slight majority seemed to think Penhall was at fault for the incident and lucky to stay in. It was a very split discussion though, even after all these years. A bigger majority agreed Carter should have ridden a cleverer race and avoided the whole problem, had he just backed off he could more than likely have got second place back - either way it would have still made this race one of the most talked about of all time although for the right reasons!

 

I think the 3 main facts are...

 

1. There was defiite contact.

2. Penhall was the one who moved line. He came out and his bike took Carter's front wheel from him.

 

I am not suggesting that solves the question either way though! For the second point did Penhall really have much choice but to drift after the line he'd taken into the corner anyway? Surely Carter knew he was coming and should have left room so it wasn't an issue? Whether there was intentional slide or a flick of the wheel is down to you to decide.

 

For me (as a confessed Halifax fan in the 80's!) Penhall was to blame and I'd have liked to see what decision would have been made had it been two different riders or at another track. I also have to add that only one rider was genuinely using his brain in that race which brings us on to the third, and most important, indisputable fact about this meeting...

 

3. Bruce Penhall is the 1982 World Champion!

[MARK246 243]

I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut. 

 

Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then.  Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall.

 

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Don't think a run off with Penhall would have been a problem for Les Collins,he had already beaten Penhall in race 4 (from the back).

 

As for Carter he lost it in heat 15 in 1981,not much else to say about him really,except his talent never matched his ego. Three world final apperances isn't a lot for a man people call "the best ever."

[BOBBATH 467]

Great post from Shoddy-I have to agree with his most important point in my view-and that is Penhall was the only one using his brain in that famous race.

[Shoddy 1]

Don't think a run off with Penhall would have been a problem for Les Collins,he had already beaten Penhall in race 4 (from the back).

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If you choose to think Collins would have beaten Carter and then Penhall again - or Carter twice that is your opinion, which is fine, although I can't say I agree.

 

The point I was making is that it is not as clear as saying Les Collins was robbed of the title - it was taken out of his hands but no set of results would have handed him the win without a lot of work still to do.

 

 

 

 

As for Carter he lost it in heat 15 in 1981...

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I can't even see the point or relevance of this comment?

 

 

 

 

except his talent never matched his ego.

 

Three world final apperances isn't a lot for a man people call "the best ever."

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Possibly right with that first bit - if only because his ego was probably too big for the talent of Peter Craven, Michael Lee or Kelly Moran!

 

Carter appeared and finished in the top 5 of 3 consecutive world finals by the age of 22. He also added in two runners up medals in WTC finals, World Pairs Champion and runner up plus 5 rostrum finishes in British, Overseas and Intercontinental finals in this time.

 

His next two seasons were decimated by injury although he still nearly made the 84 final with a broken leg and was one of the favourites in 85 before he broke his leg again - just before the final that was being held in his own back yard. Mind you he still found time to add two British Championships (one with a badly broken leg) and another runners up medal in the Pairs.

 

I don't think I've heard anyone call him the 'best ever' and I await your long list of riders who can better those very average achievements!

[MARK246 243]

I can't even see the point or relevance of this comment?

(race 15 the 1981 WC at Wembley)

 

The point was after his EF in this race, his (IMO) only real chance to win a WC had gone.In 1982 he was desperate and made a desperate manouevre which culminated in a great rider and a real ambassador for the sport losing his chance for the tittle.

As for 1983 until you mentioned it I'd forgotten he was there. an also ran in his last two heats, I remember now.It was a good weekend though traveled with the Exeter team to watch.

   

Possibly right with that first bit - if only because his ego was probably too big for the talent of Peter Craven, Michael Lee or Kelly Moran!

 

Don't reallyunderstand that bit but unfortunately I never met Peter Craven or Kelly Moran so can't say, Michael Lee was ok.

 

As for the last bit I have a life outside this forum, so I can't be bothered to look but i'm sure there isn't any one (especially from Britain) otherwise you wouldn't of written it.

Carter appeared and finished in the top 5 of 3 consecutive world finals by the age of 22.  He also added in two runners up medals in WTC finals, World Pairs Champion and runner up plus 5 rostrum finishes in British, Overseas and Intercontinental finals in this time.

 

His next two seasons were decimated by injury although he still nearly made the 84 final with a broken leg and was one of the favourites in 85 before he broke his leg again - just before the final that was being held in his own back yard.  Mind you he still found time to add two British Championships (one with a badly broken leg) and another runners up medal in the Pairs.

 

I don't think I've heard anyone call him the 'best ever' and I await your long list of riders who can better those very average achievements!

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[Shoddy 1]

The point was after his EF in this race, his (IMO) only real chance to win a WC had gone.In 1982 he was desperate and made a desperate manouevre which culminated in a great rider and a real ambassador for the sport losing his chance for the tittle.

As for 1983 until you mentioned it I'd forgotten he was there. an also ran in his last two heats, I remember now.It was a good weekend though traveled with the Exeter team to watch.

   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's an interesting way to look at it and possibly a valid view when looking at what cost probably the best rider in the world at that time the 82 title. Many still feel Penhall was at fault for the incident though (see the whole point of this thread) and as Carter's world final career ended at the age of 22 we never got see how he would have ridden as a mature rider (if he would have ever grown up of course) - not many riders got so near to the title twice by the age of 21 though. Perhaps those would have been his best years, perhaps not.

 

The whole point I was making though is that this incident only ever cost Les Collins a chance at the title - as you have said. The idea that Les would definitely have won the title if the fall hadn't happened is just not true. He still had to get two wins against Carter and/or Penhall - whether you think he'd have done it is your call. I suspect I know what most people would say his chances were but anything can happen on a speedway track - it just happened to work in Penhall's favour on that day and Les never did enough to get another chance at it. Personally I like Les as a rider but every time this comes up a couple of people say it cost him the title when the truth is it cost him a chance but he still would have needed two wins against arguably the best two riders in the world at that time.

 

Compared to Egon Muller the whole field were also-rans in 1983. Carter was still young, had 8 points from 3 rides and finished in joint 4th place, just 2 points behind the runner up so hardly a total disaster.

 

 

 

Don't reallyunderstand that bit but unfortunately I never met Peter Craven or Kelly Moran so can't say, Michael Lee was ok.

 

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You don't need to have met a rider to have seen or heard how talented they were do you? My point was that Carter had an ego too big for any rider!

 

Michael Lee was ok?!?

 

 

 

As for the last bit I have a life outside this forum, so I can't be bothered to look but i'm sure there isn't any one (especially from Britain) otherwise you wouldn't of written it.

 

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I'm sure there are a few riders who did more by that age to be honest. My point was that to say "three world final appearances isn't a lot" is a bit harsh and probably not fair. Many very good riders didn't achieve what he did on track, however obviously great his faults were, in much longer careers, Les Collins among them.

[T.N.T. 355]

1982 - Bruce Penhall won the title - end of story

 

Thats a bit unfair on Szczakiel and Muller, both won on home tracks but they were the best on the day.

Mauger crashed in the run off in 1973, thats not Szczakiels fault.

Muller won in 1983 because he used a GM engine which was better suited to the track, plus the fastest man on the day Mike Lee didn't make the start when he needed too.

The biggest farce of the one day finals was the Ermolenko win in 1993.How the referee allowed him back in the rerun in heat 15 when he, wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage, and had caused Hamill to crash was beyond belief.

Strange every ten years is a fluke champ !

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Hang on a minute

 

Yes Sam was fortunate to be back in as his chain came off going into turn one, however Sam was by far the best rider on the day and only Hans Nielsen was in the same class.

 

Remember that Sam won the title after 4 rides and then failed to score in his final ride as he was already crowned World Champion. The only ever rider to do so.

 

You say about Muller and his GM, what about Muller and his tractor.

 

The guy was oprganising the track regrade at the interval, thats what I call a farce

[Dean 0]

You say about Muller and his GM, what about Muller and his tractor.

 

The guy was oprganising the track regrade at the interval, thats what I call a farce

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Just actually watched Mullers last ride in 83 on you tube, and the guy totally cuts the corner off!!!Ive never heard it mentioned before either, always though Muller was treated a little unfair, but after seeing that im not to sure.

 

3 finals for Kenny isnt that bad, as his career was sadly short. Shawn Moran only made 3, and he rode top tier speedway for over a decade, now thats a joke really!!!

[MARK246 243]

 

Compared to Egon Muller the whole field were also-rans in 1983. Carter was still young, had 8 points from 3 rides and finished in joint 4th place, just 2 points behind the runner up so hardly a total disaster.

 

Fair point well made.

 

Michael Lee was ok?!?

 

My opinion on him, not his ridding ability.

 

IMO it is difficult to rate riders in terms of talent (ability) as people see only the rider. But speedway is not as simple, it's more like boxing one man in a ring but a backup team of maybe ten or more to get him there.

 

Some riders struggle for years without showing their true potential due to misguided help, unsuitable equipment , but all give 100% and in a sport that is what counts.

 

Thanks T.N.T. The first understatement I have seen on the BSF.

Yes Sam was fortunate to be back in as his chain came off going into turn one.

[norbold 7,116]

Just actually watched Mullers last ride in 83 on you tube, and the guy totally cuts the corner off!!!

Not totally. I think there's enough of his back wheel still on the track to make it a legal move.

[iris123 20,994]

Not totally. I think there's enough of his back wheel still on the track to make it a legal move.

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That is Egon's opinion as well.He was on tv here last week and they showed the clip.He said a couple of centimetres more and he would have been disqualified.