chunky 6,094 Posted March 20, 2008 However, in his 32 year career, Morton made some return visits to these clubs. He was back at Norwich in 1948, then again from 1956-59. He returned for a season at West Ham in 1952. And Wal also had two seasons with Wimbledon, in 1949 and then again in 1951. Besides riding in Ipswich's first season he was back for them again in their 1959 Southern Area League season. As these were obviously all separate contract deals, surely this validates them as separate clubs? If so, it adds six more clubs (teams) to his list, thus giving him a total of 24 teams/clubs that he appeared for. And if Chapelizod (RoI) are allowed (he was there in 1950) the total grows to 25. "Wandering Wal of the Raceways" indeed! This is where it can start getting silly. As far as I'm concerned, Wimbledon was Wimbledon, pre-war, post-war or whatever. Belle Vue was ALWAYS Belle Vue (Hyde Road or Kirky Lane). Cradley was Cradley, whether they used Heath or United. Just because someone had two or three spells with a club under different promotions/contracts/whatever, doesn't necessarily mean that they should be classed as separate tracks. That would mean Gordon Kennett rode for several more tracks, even though they were mostly Eastbourne, with another Wimbledon thrown in! I'd like to hear what others have to say... Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted March 20, 2008 This is where it can start getting silly. As far as I'm concerned, Wimbledon was Wimbledon, pre-war, post-war or whatever. Belle Vue was ALWAYS Belle Vue (Hyde Road or Kirky Lane). Cradley was Cradley, whether they used Heath or United. Just because someone had two or three spells with a club under different promotions/contracts/whatever, doesn't necessarily mean that they should be classed as separate tracks. That would mean Gordon Kennett rode for several more tracks, even though they were mostly Eastbourne, with another Wimbledon thrown in! I'd like to hear what others have to say... Steve In that case, there must be a deletion of one of Wal's tracks at Bradford? That would bring him down to 17. For my part, I feel recognition of different spells at tracks is justified in much the same way as King's Lynn and King's Lynn II are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,094 Posted March 20, 2008 For my part, I feel recognition of different spells at tracks is justified in much the same way as King's Lynn and King's Lynn II are. I do get your point about Bradford, and I will try and get some more information. However, to use the Lynn teams to try and validate your point here is way off. Sure, they rode at the same track, but they were two VERY DIFFERENT teams, racing in DIFFERENT LEAGUES at the SAME TIME. That is why they are separate. So, you don't think that Briggo or Ronnie Moore simply rode for Wimbledon? Or that Billy Sanders just rode for Ipswich? Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,990 Posted March 20, 2008 This is where it can start getting silly. As far as I'm concerned, Wimbledon was Wimbledon, pre-war, post-war or whatever. I'd like to hear what others have to say... Steve I agree with you Steve.Must say i am a bit sceptical with Wal Morton and his 3 "open" clubs in 1950.He was promoter/rider in Dublin,which i think rightly should be discounted as it is a foreign country.Count that and why not count all the Swedish/Polish/German clubs that other have ridden for.But did he have a contract with Motherwell for their meetings or were they just riding with whoever was available at the time?I mean take for example this nomadic Wimbledon that ride a few challenge meetings now.Would you consider those riders as Wimbledon riders,even though they have a proper contract with another club at the same level? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted March 20, 2008 I agree with you Steve.Must say i am a bit sceptical with Wal Morton and his 3 "open" clubs in Would you consider those riders as Wimbledon riders,even though they have a proper contract with another club at the same level? And what about those riders who rode for non-league teams like Rye House in the 60s, Birmingham in the early 60s, New Cross in 1959, etc. etc.? They were all contracted to other teams but turned out on an occasional (or even regular) basis for these teams.... Hmmm...talking of which, what about Stan Stevens? He rode for Rye House, Rayleigh, Cradley, New Cross, Southampton, West Ham, Oxford, King's Lynn, Wembley, Exeter, Romford, Barrow, Chesterton and Mildenhall at least - making 14 in all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,094 Posted March 20, 2008 (edited) But did he have a contract with Motherwell for their meetings or were they just riding with whoever was available at the time? I am working on the assumption that he did. I mean take for example this nomadic Wimbledon that ride a few challenge meetings now.Would you consider those riders as Wimbledon riders,even though they have a proper contract with another club at the same level? Not at all. We've had other situations where clubs have been "resurrected" in this fashion, and I wouldn't count them either. However, teams like Motherwell, Buxton (a few years ago), and Castleford should be counted, unless it was a guest appearance. Just thinking (and I thought it best to edit this than delete, seeing as someone may have picked up on this already), we should be counting OFFICIAL fixtures (see post below). Therefore Motherwell, Buxton, and Castleford DON'T count. Steve Edited March 20, 2008 by chunky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,094 Posted March 20, 2008 (edited) And what about those riders who rode for non-league teams like Rye House in the 60s, Birmingham in the early 60s, New Cross in 1959, etc. etc.? ... and Chiswick Nomads, Southern Rovers, etc... Thinking about how deep we are getting in, you're right. This did start out as appearances in OFFICIAL fixtures, in which case non-league teams would be ruled out. Sorry Wal, looks as if Motherwell doesn't count... Hmmm...talking of which, what about Stan Stevens? He rode for Rye House, Rayleigh, Cradley, New Cross, Southampton, West Ham, Oxford, King's Lynn, Wembley, Exeter, Romford, Barrow, Chesterton and Mildenhall at least - making 14 in all. Forgotten about dear old Stan! Steve Edited March 20, 2008 by chunky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted March 20, 2008 However, in his 32 year career, Morton made some return visits to these clubs. He was back at Norwich in 1948, then again from 1956-59. He returned for a season at West Ham in 1952. And Wal also had two seasons with Wimbledon, in 1949 and then again in 1951. As these were obviously all separate contract deals, surely this validates them as separate clubs? If so, it adds six more clubs (teams) to his list, thus giving him a total of 24 teams/clubs that he appeared for. Come on..: that is utterly daft!!! You are seriously suggesting that by riding for Wimbledon in 1949 and then again in 1951, this counts as two different clubs..?? You may as well say that every time the team changed it counts as a different club: in which case, can I nominate Chris Hunt in 2002 as riding for 29 different clubs..: all called Wimbledon?!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted March 21, 2008 ... and Chiswick Nomads, Southern Rovers, etc... Thinking about how deep we are getting in, you're right. This did start out as appearances in OFFICIAL fixtures, in which case non-league teams would be ruled out. Sorry Wal, looks as if Motherwell doesn't count... Yes, I agree in general with what you say, although Southern Rovers were an official team who competed in the 1956 Southern Area League. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) MORTON, Wal, 1946-64 Glasgow (White City) Harringay Norwich Wimbledon Newcastle West Ham Bradford (Odsal) Ipswich Liverpool Middlesbrough Hackney Okay, we'll leave out the pre-war days and just take this as being the club details for Wal Morton. That puts him on a recount with a respectable 11 clubs. Edited March 21, 2008 by speedyguy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
star ghost 7 Posted March 21, 2008 This gets more involved than I thought. You could???? add the Reserve & Junior Leagues of the various years and double up most riders totals that way. It has certainly been interesting reading. However I would say as the current Belle Vue are a different track it possibly could be counted differently. As for Wal Morton at Bristol the reference can be checked on Speedway Researcher in the pre-war section Happily we are all fair-minded followers of this sport and there is no slagging off in this thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted March 21, 2008 This gets more involved than I thought. You could???? add the Reserve & Junior Leagues of the various years and double up most riders totals that way. It has certainly been interesting reading. However I would say as the current Belle Vue are a different track it possibly could be counted differently. As for Wal Morton at Bristol the reference can be checked on Speedway Researcher in the pre-war section Happily we are all fair-minded followers of this sport and there is no slagging off in this thread The as dear old Wal rode at two different tracks in Bradford - Odsal and Greenfield - will that add another total to his 1946-64 total? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,094 Posted March 21, 2008 This gets more involved than I thought. You could???? add the Reserve & Junior Leagues of the various years and double up most riders totals that way. It has certainly been interesting reading. However I would say as the current Belle Vue are a different track it possibly could be counted differently. As for Wal Morton at Bristol the reference can be checked on Speedway Researcher in the pre-war section Happily we are all fair-minded followers of this sport and there is no slagging off in this thread That's the problem - there are "possibles". With the Reserve and Junior Leagues, I think they can justifiably be counted as separate, simply because they were involved in league action, quite often at the same time as the senior teams. Overall, there aren't going to be that many riders affected though. In the 50's, when we had Reserves Leagues, most riders failed to establish themselves in the sport, and coupled with good old "loyalty", we really didn't see that many "track-hopping". speedyguy wrote : Okay, we'll leave out the pre-war days and just take this as being the club details for Wal Morton. That puts him on a recount with a respectable 11 clubs. There is no need to omit the pre-war clubs. If they were contracted to a bona fide team, then that should count. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,094 Posted March 21, 2008 Yes, I agree in general with what you say, although Southern Rovers were an official team who competed in the 1956 Southern Area League. Sorry, my bad! You know what though; that moves Eric Hockaday up the table... Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted March 21, 2008 I see that in Wal Morton's impressive list, 'West Ham Reserves' gets an mention..; and, for example, Tony Featherstone's list includes both King's Lynn and 'King's Lynn II'. Well, in that case - you need to add the Stoke CL team (the Spitfires) to Buzz's list as he rode for them (in early 2003), as well as his stints with the senior Potters. Right..: there's more!!!! In 1994 when back at Middlesbrough, Buzz appeared in the CL for the Cleveland Bays: ie the 'Middlesboro II' team based at Cleveland Park. Last year he was again a Cleveland Bay but that incarnation was - as their revised name this year more clearly shows - 'Redcar II': a completely different club/track despite adopting (in '07 only, it seems..) the same name as the earlier third division club. Disregarding speedyguy's attempts to cloud an issue which previously was totally clear (which incidentally, you'll note he only did once Buzz was mentioned - check out his inglorious record of slagging off Buzz whenever he can across the BSF.. ) - this means that Buzz's total is up to 15 ..: as follows: Scunthorpe ('84) Edinburgh ('85-6) Middlesbrough ('87 & '92-94) Glasgow ('92) Buxton ('94-'96) Cleveland (ie Middlesbrough II) ('94) Sheffield ('94) Belle Vue ('94 & '02) Coventry ('94) Hull ('94) Long Eaton ('95) Stoke ('97-'02 & '07-?) Stoke II ('03) Wimbledon ('03-'05) Cleveland (ie Redcar II) ('07) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
