norbold 7,110 Posted November 4, 2009 All Forums have Threads that go off Topic sometimes. Ours more than most! I mean this is hardly the first example in the history of the BSF that a topic has gone off subject. is it mick? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canadian Star 6 Posted November 17, 2009 Gentlemen, whilst i am currently on my hols, i have had a little more time than usual to tour the forum. I have not visited the "Years Gone By" section for ages. How pleasent it has been this morning to read such a friendly, fact based and reasoned argument as has been this one. Apart from one small interjection of rudeness, it has been an absolute pleasure to read all of your opinions, they all made good sense. It just proves a point that it is still possible to enjoy a reasoned debate on here, without sinking to the levels of abuse, sarcasm and name calling we see so often on most of the main area's of this site. Thank You and a huge well done to all of you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rami 14 Posted November 17, 2009 Salty, don't get me wrong, I think Erik was a great rider. That's why I made sure I gave him at least one GP championship, some people didn't even give him that, but I think that's inconceviable. It's just I saw Hans Nielsen a lot - and he had a bad meeting about once every five years. At his prime, I believe he was the most consistent rider ever seen. From 1985 to 1989, Nielsen in a GP series would have been a very, very hard man to beat over 8 rounds - even for a great rider such as Gundersen. 1982 has to be Penhall or Carter - the question is which one. 1983 is maybe the hardest year to predict of all. There's no outstanding candidate, but arould 6 or 7 riders who could have done it. All the best Rob I agree that week in week out Hans was the man but i still think that Erik had the edge when it came to raising his game and if that was for a one of final or 8 grand prixs i think he would have still given hans a run for his money. Being top of the averages doesnt always mean anything when it comes to big pressure meetings. Perfect example Leigh Adams, lets say the GP system had never been introduced we are still on one off world finals and Leigh had never won one, probably 90 per cent of people on here would say that if it had been a gp system Leigh Adams would have been world champ at least once maybe twice - well it was a gp system and he never was world champion, maybe if it was still the old one off world final mr consistency would have pinched a world title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I agree that week in week out Hans was the man but i still think that Erik had the edge when it came to raising his game and if that was for a one of final or 8 grand prixs i think he would have still given hans a run for his money. Being top of the averages doesnt always mean anything when it comes to big pressure meetings. Perfect example Leigh Adams, lets say the GP system had never been introduced we are still on one off world finals and Leigh had never won one, probably 90 per cent of people on here would say that if it had been a gp system Leigh Adams would have been world champ at least once maybe twice - well it was a gp system and he never was world champion, maybe if it was still the old one off world final mr consistency would have pinched a world title. Rami, there's a world of difference between Hans Nielsen and Leigh Adams, though. Leigh doesn't want to take the risks in the Grand Prix, whereas Hans was capable of being quite ruthless when it came to gaining even one extra point in a World Final. Hans Nielsen was a much harder rider than Leigh Adams. And Hans was very consistent at world level, while Leigh has always been very up-and-down on the world stage. Erik wouldn't have made it easy for Hans, but even one bad round out of 8 would have been too many. And Erik did have the odd blip, the 1986 World Final being the most noticeable. Looking at the 1984 to 1989 World Finals and Erik and Hans won 3 each. However, in those finals, Hans scored 13 points more than Erik - and remember, in the GP series, EVERY point counts. It shows even if Erik won half of the rounds in a GP series, he'd still struggle to win it overall against a rider who finished first or second every time. The GP series rewards consistency - look at 2008 when Nicki Pedersen was a fairly easy winner, despite winning just one round. Crump & Gollob both won more rounds, but couldn't match Nicki's consistency. All the best Rob Edited November 17, 2009 by lucifer sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
salty 2,202 Posted November 18, 2009 Looking at the 1984 to 1989 World Finals and Erik and Hans won 3 each. However, in those finals, Hans scored 13 points more than Erik - and remember, in the GP series, EVERY point counts. It shows even if Erik won half of the rounds in a GP series, he'd still struggle to win it overall against a rider who finished first or second every time. But as I said before Rob, I feel once Erik knew he wasn't going to be champ then he wouldn't be so driven for the rest of the meeting just to try and get a rostrum spot. 2nd or 3rd meant nothing to him hence the lower points hauls when he wasn't champ. Still reckon if it had been a GP format then you would have seen a more consisitent Erik. Anyone any strong views who would have been Champ in 1983 under the GP format? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 18, 2009 But as I said before Rob, I feel once Erik knew he wasn't going to be champ then he wouldn't be so driven for the rest of the meeting just to try and get a rostrum spot. 2nd or 3rd meant nothing to him hence the lower points hauls when he wasn't champ. Still reckon if it had been a GP format then you would have seen a more consisitent Erik. Salty, I don't quite buy that since in Amsterdam in 1987, Erik dropped four points early on Day Two, but plugged away and eventually finished second, beating Ermolenko in a run-off. Interestingly, the two times the Danes needed a rider to win a run-off in the World Pairs (for the 1984 silver medal and the 1986 gold medal), Hans was chosen before Erik on both ocassions and duly delivered each time. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
salty 2,202 Posted November 18, 2009 I guess that's a fair point, I'd forgotten that he finished with 3 wins in Amsterdam. Much of the same in Munich I guess, as without the m/f he would probably finished with 14. I think it's fair to say 1986 was the one he wasn't interested in a podium spot. Strange that the Danes would put so much faith in Hans in the run-offs as his record in the World Championship run-offs was poor. Could it be that Hans would have found the A Finals similarly too much pressure???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) I guess that's a fair point, I'd forgotten that he finished with 3 wins in Amsterdam. Much of the same in Munich I guess, as without the m/f he would probably finished with 14. I think it's fair to say 1986 was the one he wasn't interested in a podium spot. Strange that the Danes would put so much faith in Hans in the run-offs as his record in the World Championship run-offs was poor. Could it be that Hans would have found the A Finals similarly too much pressure???? Is that really true? Hans Nielsen's record in run-offs: 1984: Nielsen, King 1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko 1988: Gundersen, Nielsen 1991: Nielsen, Knudsen 1993: Nielsen, Louis 1994: Rickardsson, Nielsen, Boyce A 5-3 record. Compare to Ivan Mauger: 1972: Mauger, Persson 1973: Szczakiel, Mauger 1974: Mauger, Sjosten 1975: Louis, Mauger A 2-2 record. Nielsen also has a better record than Mauger in World Pairs run-offs. So it looks like Hans Nielsen was better under pressure than Ivan Mauger. Of course, Erik's record in run-offs is very good: 1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko 1987: Gundersen, Ermolneko 1988: Gundersen, Nielsen A 4-0 record. But Nielsen normally outperformed Gundersen in the World Pairs and when it came to the Danes selecting a man to contest a run-off, it was Nielsen selected and not Gundersen. And Gundersen did crack under pressure sometimes. Remember the run-off for first place in the 1984 BLRC, when Gundersen shot through the tapes. All the best Rob Edited November 18, 2009 by lucifer sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
salty 2,202 Posted November 19, 2009 Clever use of stats! I would only be interested in run-offs for the Number 1 slot, so I have Hans 0-3, Ivan 1-1, Erik 2-0. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Clever use of stats! I would only be interested in run-offs for the Number 1 slot, so I have Hans 0-3, Ivan 1-1, Erik 2-0. In run-offs for first place, surely Hans is 2-3 as he beat both Ermolenko & Boyce in such run-offs (and Erik is 3-0 not 2-0). I think you're twisting the stats the way you want them. The way I see it is: in the World Final and World Pairs Finals run-offs, Nielsen's record is 7-3. And the 3 losses all came in meetings where he was the worst for wear by the end of the meeting. In 1985 he walking it until he was brought crashing down in his fourth outing and ended up losing his No.1 bike on which he mullered Gundersen in Heat 4, in 1988 he continued in the meeting despite being injured in his first ride (look at the photos of Hans that day following the fall, he doesn't look quite right - did he contunue in the meeting with concussion?) and in 1994, he had only just returned from injury and was still only semi-fit. Twice the Danes had to pick a man to win a run-off for them in the World Pairs. Twice they picked Nielsen and ignored Gundersen. Twice Nielsen won the run-off for Denmark. Once (1984) the Danish team manager in question was Ole Olsen, who picked Nielsen ahead of Gundersen, the rider he was managing. Nielsen not being any good in run-offs is a myth - and one who seem to be trying to perpuate. And the cold hard facts is that it's just not true. And I don't think anyone could win a record 22 World Championship Gold Medals (Hans actually has 23 FIM Gold Medals as one was also handed out to the winner of the Champion Of Champions) without being good under pressure. Nielsen often came good under pressure, the 1979 World Pairs Final (5-1 with Olsen in final race), the 1986 World Final (final race shootout against Jan O), 1986 World Pairs Final (won in a run-off) and the 1988 & 1990 World Pairs Final (both won with a Danish maximum in the final to break the hearts of England & Australia respectively) are all examples of this. And shall we look at who did better in pressure last-heat deciders between Cradley Heath and Oxford at Dudley Wood, because I recall Nielsen being supreme in those. Gundersen, Pedersen and Cross used to have thier arses kicked on a regular basis by Hans at Dudley Wood. All the best Rob Edited November 19, 2009 by lucifer sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waihekerich 0 Posted November 19, 2009 Hi all, New to the forum, I was a regular at Hyde Rd from 81-87, before my family moved back to NZ. Followed this thread with much interest, thought I’d share my thoughts on probable GP winners if the system was in effect in the 80s. 1980: 1 Jessup 2 Lee 3 Peter Collins 1981: 1 Penhall 2 Jessup 3 Lee 1982: 1 Penhall 2 Carter 3 Gundersen 1983: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Lee 1984: 1 Gundersen 2 Nielsen 3 S Moran 1985: 1 Gundersen 2 Nielsen 3 S Moran 1986: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Knudsen 1987: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Ermolenko 1988: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Pedersen 1989: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Wigg Notes: 80: Jessup consistently the best rider, he and Lee well clear of the rest. Would have gone with Penhall for 3rd, but not sure he did enough in ’79 to qualify, so gone with PC. 81: Penhall indisputably the best rider in the world. Gone with Jessup 2nd based on his overseas final victory, and would have finished on podium in World final if not for engine problems. Would have gone with Carter for 3rd, but not sure he would have qualified from 80. Lee a marginal call, could have gone with Olsen, Nielsen, Knudsen or Gundersen (though like Carter not sure the latter would have qualified). 82: Would have been the most memorable two-way battle of the decade, in the end I think Penhall would have edged it as the better rider under pressure. 3rd spot I would have gone with Les Collins or Sigalos, but again don’t think either would have qualified from the prior year, so went with Gundersen to edge out Nielsen for 3rd. 83: Probaby the most open season in so far as its quite conceivable each GP would have been won by a different rider. But think that makes Nielsen a reasonably clear cut selection as GP winner due to his consistency ,as evidenced by his winning the Danish, Nordic and Inter-Conitntental rounds, 2nd in BL averages, 3rd in BLRC, and would have finished on podium in Norden if not for engine failure. Gundersen (2nd in Danish and Nordic finals, 3rd in Inter-comtinental BLRC winner, 3rd in averages, 4th in world Final) and Lee (2nd in British and Inter-continental finals, and BLRC and 3rd in World final) to join him on the rostrum. Carter, Sigalos and Sanders would be the others in contention, but don’t think any did enough to justify inclusion ahead of the three I’ve gone with. 84: Gone with Erik to win, as arguably his best year as he did the “grand slam”, and Nielsen not yet as consistently brilliant as he would become. Gundersen’s BL average significantly lower than Hans due to numerous tape exclusions (also in the BLRC run-off), but the new rules wouldn’t have applied to GP. Shaun Moran in third on basis of his inter-contintntal final victory (and he would likely have won the overseas final if not for an engine failure). Morton (who had arguably his best ever season) and King (Overseas champ and third in both world final and inter-continental final) would have come close to rostrum spots. 85: Think this would have been the best three way battle of the decade, with Gundersen, Nielsen and Moran battling it out (and Carter would have been very close too until hit by injury). In the end Gundersen winning the World Final and BLRC sees me go with him over Hans then Shaun. 86-89: This is where Hans really came into his own, and don’t think anyone would have touched him over a GP series. Erik would have been just a few points back in second and then a number of riders way back in the distance scrapping for 3rd (exception being 88 where I think Pedersen would have run the big two close). Even in 89 I think Erik would have built up enough of a buffer to hold onto second even with his tragic accident late in the season. Even in 86-89 I think Erik would have won as many or more GPs than Hans – he clearly has the better record in final run-offs, no matter whether you view them as having a 2-3/3-0 or 0-3/2-0 record in first place run offs (I think the latter is correct – Hans won no world finals in three run-off situations, Erik won 2 from 2). That’s not to say that Hans was no good in pressure situations – clearly as pointed out in detail on here he was. My view is that if I was picking someone to ride for my life in a must-win situation I’d pick Hans every time – unless it was a head-to-head for the World Title with Erik, in which case I’d go with Erik. And I reckon Penhall would beat them both! Cheers Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Is that really true? Hans Nielsen's record in run-offs: 1984: Nielsen, King 1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko 1988: Gundersen, Nielsen 1991: Nielsen, Knudsen 1993: Nielsen, Louis 1994: Rickardsson, Nielsen, Boyce A 5-3 record. Compare to Ivan Mauger: 1972: Mauger, Persson 1973: Szczakiel, Mauger 1974: Mauger, Sjosten 1975: Louis, Mauger A 2-2 record. Nielsen also has a better record than Mauger in World Pairs run-offs. So it looks like Hans Nielsen was better under pressure than Ivan Mauger. Of course, Erik's record in run-offs is very good: 1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko 1987: Gundersen, Ermolneko 1988: Gundersen, Nielsen A 4-0 record. But Nielsen normally outperformed Gundersen in the World Pairs and when it came to the Danes selecting a man to contest a run-off, it was Nielsen selected and not Gundersen. And Gundersen did crack under pressure sometimes. Remember the run-off for first place in the 1984 BLRC, when Gundersen shot through the tapes. All the best Rob Interesting reading is that Rob. I tend to think you've included some rather redundant stats though. For me, the key one is that Hans lost three run-offs out of three to win the title, Erik won two out of two. For me, Gundersen was THE MAN when it came to the crunch. I'd be interested in knowing their head-to-head record in finals from 81 to 89. My feeling is that Erik once again has the edge. As a footnote, yep I remember that BLRC run-off well. Gundersen was notorious for tape touching that year. It was the first year of the new exclusion rule being brought in and he found it harder than most to adjust to it. In the re-run, Nielsen stopped and tried to claim foul when Chris Morton surprised him by nipping inside him on the second bend. Hans hardly demonstrated a head for the occasion that night too. Edited November 19, 2009 by falcace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted November 19, 2009 Anyone any strong views who would have been Champ in 1983 under the GP format? A tricky one to call is that. There would've been a fair few GP winners that year. Chris Morton started the year like a train. Dennis Sigalos and Hans Nielsen were the top riders during the summer and Kenny Carter finally got back his top form by the year's end. But my pick would have been Mike Lee. He was in excellent form all year, he was mentally refreshed by his move to Poole and - unlike his main rivals - he had ample experience of competing at the very top end of the sport. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cardrew 0 Posted February 10, 2010 From the early years, the best riders to never actually win a World Championship were Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker and Vic Duggan. The first four won the Star Championship (a forerunner of the WC), and Vic Duggan won the British Riders Championship (in a year when there was no WC). Jack Parker also become World's Individual Champion in 1931, in a competition later known as the BIC. It is incredible that the last 4 Star Champions were British (1932-35), but over the next 50 years there were only a handful of British World Champions (Price, Williams x2, Craven x2, Collins, Lee) The last British World Champion (Mark Loram) wasn't born in Great Britain, the current World Champion (Jason Crump) was! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,110 Posted February 10, 2010 From the early years, the best riders to never actually win a World Championship were Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker and Vic Duggan. The first four won the Star Championship (a forerunner of the WC), and Vic Duggan won the British Riders Championship (in a year when there was no WC). Jack Parker also become World's Individual Champion in 1931, in a competition later known as the BIC. Couldn't agree more. Jack Parker, of course, also won the Riders' Championship in 1947. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
