waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 18, 2012 no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77 Note that that list is not neccesarily my view, but a summarry of other's thoughts on this thread. I agree Collins over Mauger, but don&;t think its clear cut. PC only beat him in a run-off in the Ic final, and but for a Mauger ef the Final itself would have gone to a run off. 77 - PC himself said that Olsen was the form rider early in the season, and of course PC would have had to ride on one leg for the last three or so meetings. He was able to produce an amazing performance on one leg in the final, but could he have done the same over three meetings? I remember Kenny Carter winning the B Final in 84 with a broken leg, qualifying comfortably enough from the Overseas final in the next round, but then finding the inter-continental a step too far - perhaps PC may have struggled too, the leg injury would have made it particularly tough to come from the back, and while Pc made every gate in the final, perhaps too much to imagine him gating well three meetings in a row? Despite that, my vote also goes to Collins, but only just over Olsen. When Nielsen got his 11 plus averages the level had dropped quite alot, then .And by the way Lee was not a old man when that joke ban happened 24/25 and at the end of 83 murdered Nielsen in the Pride of the east .Also you have got the word PEAK wrong because Penhall only had 5 years in Britain he would of improved his confidence sky high after winning his titles Penhall when he retired was more consistent than Hans.Nielsen would of never got a 11 plus average with a Penhall a fit Sigalos Lee Sanders Carter Gundersen Knudsen S,Moran around you overplay the word PEAK and figures. You don't think that whether a rider is at their peak (best, top of their game if you prefer those phrases) has a bearing on the outcome of their clashes with other riders? Penhall in 81 was riding as well as any rider in history, he may have been able to maintain that form, I'm not sure he would have improved on it. Nielsen averaged close to 11 in 83 when all those riders (bar Penhall) were around, he improved after that, and consistently beat Gundersen, S Moran and Knudsen when they were at their (here's that word again) peak. I'm confident he would have averaged over 11 even with those riders around. Anyway its all speculation/opinions, no way to prove it one way or the other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 18, 2012 Note that that list is not neccesarily my view, but a summarry of other's thoughts on this thread. I agree Collins over Mauger, but don&;t think its clear cut. PC only beat him in a run-off in the Ic final, and but for a Mauger ef the Final itself would have gone to a run off. 77 - PC himself said that Olsen was the form rider early in the season, and of course PC would have had to ride on one leg for the last three or so meetings. He was able to produce an amazing performance on one leg in the final, but could he have done the same over three meetings? I remember Kenny Carter winning the B Final in 84 with a broken leg, qualifying comfortably enough from the Overseas final in the next round, but then finding the inter-continental a step too far - perhaps PC may have struggled too, the leg injury would have made it particularly tough to come from the back, and while Pc made every gate in the final, perhaps too much to imagine him gating well three meetings in a row? Despite that, my vote also goes to Collins, but only just over Olsen. You don't think that whether a rider is at their peak (best, top of their game if you prefer those phrases) has a bearing on the outcome of their clashes with other riders? Penhall in 81 was riding as well as any rider in history, he may have been able to maintain that form, I'm not sure he would have improved on it. Nielsen averaged close to 11 in 83 when all those riders (bar Penhall) were around, he improved after that, and consistently beat Gundersen, S Moran and Knudsen when they were at their (here's that word again) peak. I'm confident he would have averaged over 11 even with those riders around. Anyway its all speculation/opinions, no way to prove it one way or the other. You only named 3 riders thats why he averaged 11.50 ish or over a number of times and god that was unbelievable .For a few years i and a couple mates went most weeks to Cowley and i can remember on one hand how many riders beat him. I would love to have the stats, if my memory serves me i remember Shirra and Holloway getting a 5.1 over him in a 3 team tourn Gundersen wiped the floor with him once he went through the card helmet as well i think? also Thorp , Blackbird, Knudsen K. Moran thats about it really he was like a machine .By the way Waihekeaces1 do you? think Lee if motivated and dad helping would of been a threat into his early 30s i do but i think he might of struggled a little with the new starting precedures.He could of conquered that i think,since i have been going at his best Lee was the quickest rider i ever saw ive noticed on his on nights he always had mega quick times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted January 18, 2012 i and a couple mates went most weeks to Cowley and i can remember on one hand how many riders beat him. I would love to have the stats, if my memory serves me i remember Shirra and Holloway getting a 5.1 over him in a 3 team tourn Gundersen wiped the floor with him once he went through the card helmet as well i think? also Thorp , Blackbird, Knudsen K. Moran thats about it really he was like a machine. Team riding was never his forte though was it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc8PBZPhx2k Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 18, 2012 Team riding was never his forte though was it? http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Tc8PBZPhx2k Morton was brilliant from the back who was the better From the back Mort or P.C? both superb at Hyde rd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 18, 2012 Morton was brilliant from the back who was the better From the back Mort or P.C? both superb at Hyde rd. Simple. PC was better in the 70s. Mort was better in the 80s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted January 24, 2012 Ok i aint sure if this has ever been done and if it has i apologise. But being halfway through the "Tragedy" book about Kenny Carter i got thinking who people would class as the best rider never to actually be World Champion. So i was thinking that we could name who we think it was and if you wanted you could maybe put your own reason/thoughts/analysis as to why said rider never got their hands on the most sought after prize in speedway. It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 24, 2012 It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion. A great at Costa Mesa thats it, Graham Warren for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted January 25, 2012 It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion. I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider: Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 25, 2012 I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider: Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko Agree with all Falcace T. Jansson, Williams,Farndon Warren ,Sigalos,S.Moran that is my elite of all time.Bast i dont think would get in my top 50. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted January 25, 2012 But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider: Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko Falcace, good point well made - and your list doesn't even include: Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jan O Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Jack Parker, Leigh Adams, Igor Plechanov, Graham Warren, Tom Farndon or Vic Huxley. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Whether Mike Bast could have done a credible job riding in the British League is open for debate - I think he would have done. Of course we can't know for sure. Stating he is amongst the best 20 or even 50 best riders of all-time is stretching the bounds of credibility. All the best Rob Agree with all Falcace T. Jansson, Williams,Farndon Warren ,Sigalos,S.Moran that is my elite of all time.Bast i dont think would get in my top 50. Sidney, I agree - since 1928 there have been many greats. If Bast was as good as them, he would have made the Overseas Final a bit more. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 25, 2012 Falcace, good point well made - and your list doesn't even include: Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jan O Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Jack Parker, Leigh Adams, Igor Plechanov, Graham Warren, Tom Farndon or Vic Huxley. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Whether Mike Bast could have done a credible job riding in the British League is open for debate - I think he would have done. Of course we can't know for sure. Stating he is amongst the best 20 or even 50 best riders of all-time is stretching the bounds of credibility. All the best Rob Indeed and don't forget Split Waterman, the only man other than Plechanov - I think I'm right in saying - to twice be a World Final runner up and yet never to have lifted the title at another time. To me those two, Plechanov & the peerless Squire Francis Waterman esquire are along with Vic Duggan the three who most deserve the title described in the title of this thread... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,990 Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Indeed and don't forget Split Waterman, the only man other than Plechanov - I think I'm right in saying - to twice be a World Final runner up and yet never to have lifted the title at another time. To me those two, Plechanov & the peerless Squire Francis Waterman esquire are along with Vic Duggan the three who most deserve the title described in the title of this thread... Yeah,but don't forget one the most naturally talented riders ever.Surely on decent equipment he fits the bill? Edited January 25, 2012 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted January 25, 2012 Yeah,but don't forget one the most naturally talented riders ever.Surely on decent equipment he fits the bill? :lol: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted January 25, 2012 I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider: Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko Before I do, where's the likes of Lionel van Praag, Bluey Wilkosn, Lamoreaux, both Milnes and Jack Paerker for example? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 25, 2012 Before I do, where's the likes of Lionel van Praag, Bluey Wilkosn, Lamoreaux, both Milnes and Jack Paerker for example? Speedyguy who out of the cream, thats been named is Bast better than.?Dont get me wrong i liked Bast he was talented or was it natural? whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
