Carter Where Does He Rate With The Great British Riders?

[Sprog1 79]

Some of Carter's injuries may have been a result of his style but the broken leg in 1984 was unfortunate as he was run over by his team mate at Cradley. His broken leg in 1985 was the result of first bend bunching on a wet track at Vetlanda. Not sure about his broken jaw and collapsed lung though. I just think the Carters were cursed when you look at everything that happened to them.

 

He broke his jaw when he collided with Hans Nielsons back wheel and was pitched head first into the safety fence. He always claimed Nielson deliberately shut off in front of him and absolutely detested Nielson afterwards, although Nielson says he would never deliberately shut off in front of any rider.

 

Ivan Mauger once said that if a rider keeps getting injured he is either very unlucky or else he is doing something wrong. In Carters case it really adds up to the same thing because very few riders can maintain a top standard if they keep getting the sort of knocks that Carter was picking up. When you look at everything in Carters life I see no reason to feel that things would change. We will never know of course, but I doubt it.

 

You mentioned Joe Screen earlier. He had a few knocks of course but nothing to stop him having a very long career, but when you have a rider like a Screen who as you say was immensely talented as a younger man that ability to read a race control the bike in a mill-second, when an incident occurs is often the difference between staying on the bike and a bad crash. My feeling about Carter is that his heart ruled his head too much.

 

 

 

[stratton 1,491]

He broke his jaw when he collided with Hans Nielsons back wheel and was pitched head first into the safety fence. He always claimed Nielson deliberately shut off in front of him and absolutely detested Nielson afterwards, although Nielson says he would never deliberately shut off in front of any rider.

 

Ivan Mauger once said that if a rider keeps getting injured he is either very unlucky or else he is doing something wrong. In Carters case it really adds up to the same thing because very few riders can maintain a top standard if they keep getting the sort of knocks that Carter was picking up. When you look at everything in Carters life I see no reason to feel that things would change. We will never know of course, but I doubt it.

 

You mentioned Joe Screen earlier. He had a few knocks of course but nothing to stop him having a very long career, but when you have a rider like a Screen who as you say was immensely talented as a younger man that ability to read a race control the bike in a mill-second, when an incident occurs is often the difference between staying on the bike and a bad crash. My feeling about Carter is that his heart ruled his head too much.

I think injuries, are part of speedway,ive seen riders who in my opinion were dangerous riders out of control.I wont name names and most of those ended up unscathed.Where others were very unlucky i think some things are decided sometimes fate.P.C a prime example, got badly injured at hyde rd drain cover showing still up, wasnt Peters fault just human error by someone else.As it happens that in 1977 cost Pete his second world title.I no Carter did take chances maybe some of his were his fault,but generally i think injuries will always be part and parcel in speedway.

[Shay Hey Kid 0]

I reckon both Malcolm Simmons, Dave Jessup and Les Collins were ahead of him too.

 

On what grounds? imho none of those riders were even close to Carter. Carter's standing is diminished by the manner of his death ( and the lives he took with him both literally and figuratively ) and his apparent failure at World Final level. But he had something (and not just great machinery) which was not necessarily quantifiable. For those of us who had the privilege ( and yes it was a privilege ) of watching the Dukes at Shay and around the country, KC was the jewel in the crown. Good machinery, great rider. I just don't get the " not a natural on a bike " arguments.

[Shay Hey Kid 0]

He broke his jaw when he collided with Hans Nielsons back wheel and was pitched head first into the safety fence. He always claimed Nielson deliberately shut off in front of him and absolutely detested Nielson afterwards, although Nielson says he would never deliberately shut off in front of any rider.

 

I was at the meeting that night... Nielson had the lead coming out of turn four. IIRC the track was greasy if not flat out wet. Carter made a run off the bank of turn four on the outside of Hans. To this day I will swear that Nielson drifted wide enough to drive Carter into the fence of the home straight. Subtle but, just imo, deliberate.

[The White Knight 9,039]

On what grounds? imho none of those riders were even close to Carter. Carter's standing is diminished by the manner of his death ( and the lives he took with him both literally and figuratively ) and his apparent failure at World Final level. But he had something (and not just great machinery) which was not necessarily quantifiable. For those of us who had the privilege ( and yes it was a privilege ) of watching the Dukes at Shay and around the country, KC was the jewel in the crown. Good machinery, great rider. I just don't get the " not a natural on a bike " arguments.

 

Speedway Riders are judged on Results. Carter was a good Rider - but - he did not reach the heights of the other Riders I mentioned. He WAS certainly brave - I am not questioning that. The fact is though that he never really realized his FULL potential. Sad - but - True!!

[stratton 1,491]

On what grounds? imho none of those riders were even close to Carter. Carter's standing is diminished by the manner of his death ( and the lives he took with him both literally and figuratively ) and his apparent failure at World Final level. But he had something (and not just great machinery) which was not necessarily quantifiable. For those of us who had the privilege ( and yes it was a privilege ) of watching the Dukes at Shay and around the country, KC was the jewel in the crown. Good machinery, great rider. I just don't get the " not a natural on a bike " arguments.

I agree totally was a privilege to see him ride didnt see him as much as id like.Im also amazed about natural talent comment also Screen had 20 times more ability?Na dont think so.

[ImpartialOne 160]

I agree totally was a privilege to see him ride didnt see him as much as id like.Im also amazed about natural talent comment also Screen had 20 times more ability?Na dont think so.

I know so.

[stratton 1,491]

I know so.

You are not on the same planet as me [i know so?]ring of arrogance about that comment .That Halifax chap has seen Carter more times than you and i ,and his opinion stands up to yours no end for me.How many times did you see carter ride?[on world of sport]maybe?Even if you are negative about Carter underachieving his cv is still better than screens.As for the natural talent arguement its not even worth thinking about you dont ride to carters level by not having natural ability.Before he started having laps around the shay its not like he had a background in speedway.Started from a novice and crammed alot into his career up until his death.

[ImpartialOne 160]

You are not on the same planet as me [i know so?]ring of arrogance about that comment .That Halifax chap has seen Carter more times than you and i ,and his opinion stands up to yours no end for me.How many times did you see carter ride?[on world of sport]maybe?Even if you are negative about Carter underachieving his cv is still better than screens.As for the natural talent arguement its not even worth thinking about you dont ride to carters level by not having natural ability.Before he started having laps around the shay its not like he had a background in speedway.Started from a novice and crammed alot into his career up until his death.

Well you clearly know nothing about me with talk like that. To be honest, your last two sentences actually back up what I say. And it's not arrogance, it's just the truth. Carter was not a natural on a bike in the same way that Screen, Morans, Loram, etc are/were.

 

As for planets, well, I'm in agreeance with you on that one. I'm surprised you're even getting a signal up there

Edited October 25, 2011 by ImpartialOne

[stratton 1,491]

Well you clearly know nothing about me with talk like that. To be honest, your last two sentences actually back up what I say. And it's not arrogance, it's just the truth. Carter was not a natural on a bike in the same way that Screen, Morans, Loram, etc are/were.

 

As for planets, well, I'm in agreeance with you on that one. I'm surprised you're even getting a signal up there

The truth,? your opinion only,and you do seem to have a high opinion of yourself.Have noticed on most of your posts ,is your way or nothing.I admit im wrong prob most of the time live and learn off others my motto.The guy from Halifax, who watched carter alot agrees about the talent issue, which he was amazed with as well .Which his knowledge on carter is greater than yours,also you didnt say how many times you see carter ride?.opinion is a word you need to learn, respect others i certainly do.

[ImpartialOne 160]

The truth,? your opinion only,and you do seem to have a high opinion of yourself.Have noticed on most of your posts ,is your way or nothing.I admit im wrong prob most of the time live and learn off others my motto.The guy from Halifax, who watched carter alot agrees about the talent issue, which he was amazed with as well .Which his knowledge on carter is greater than yours,also you didn't say how many times you see carter ride?.opinion is a word you need to learn, respect others i certainly do.

I saw him many times and admired him greatly, particularly his performance in the 1984 British Final which will live long in the memory as an amazing achievement. Not only did he win it with a broken leg but he put the likes of Peter Collins, Chris Morton and John Louis to shame with their whining by proving the track was raceable.

 

However, one advantage I have is that I'm not biased by team loyalties and any Halifax or Bradford fan is understandably going to see him in a way that clouds the fact that he didn't possess the same natural ability on a bike of those I mentioned.

 

Carter was brave, confident and fearless. He had the focus and ambition that Screen and the Morans lacked at times. He worked hard for what he achieved because he couldn't rely on abilty alone to carry him. Screen is and was very much the British Moran. Their natural ability had to do most of the work because of their lifestyle. The bottom line is that Screen can read a race without thinking about it; it's pure instinct. He can do things on a bike that Carter could only dream of.

[stratton 1,491]

I saw him many times and admired him greatly, particularly his performance in the 1984 British Final which will live long in the memory as an amazing achievement. Not only did he win it with a broken leg but he put the likes of Peter Collins, Chris Morton and John Louis to shame with their whining by proving the track was raceable.

 

However, one advantage I have is that I'm not biased by team loyalties and any Halifax or Bradford fan is understandably going to see him in a way that clouds the fact that he didn't possess the same natural ability on a bike of those I mentioned.

 

Carter was brave, confident and fearless. He had the focus and ambition that Screen and the Morans lacked at times. He worked hard for what he achieved because he couldn't rely on abilty alone to carry him. Screen is and was very much the British Moran. Their natural ability had to do most of the work because of their lifestyle. The bottom line is that Screen can read a race without thinking about it; it's pure instinct. He can do things on a bike that Carter could only dream of.

your opinion,and i respect it but what ive learned from people involved in speedway. How many times people have said he only won that because he had quick bikes.You have got to be really talented to ride quick bikes there is a talent in it.That grit and determination you talked about, wouldnt of been anough without talent not anough.Mike lee said as much on his dvd asked a question about carter you have got to have skill to ride at speed.Did say without being nasty that carter would have to win at any cost.i liked joe screen very much still do,even thou as a youngster i preferred martin dugard.But if there was a poll with 100 people, who was the better rider [talent accomplishments whatever combined]Carter or Screen i think i no who would get more votes.only my opinion thou.

[ImpartialOne 160]

your opinion,and i respect it but what ive learned from people involved in speedway. How many times people have said he only won that because he had quick bikes.You have got to be really talented to ride quick bikes there is a talent in it.That grit and determination you talked about, wouldnt of been anough without talent not anough.Mike lee said as much on his dvd asked a question about carter you have got to have skill to ride at speed.Did say without being nasty that carter would have to win at any cost.i liked joe screen very much still do,even thou as a youngster i preferred martin dugard.But if there was a poll with 100 people, who was the better rider [talent accomplishments whatever combined]Carter or Screen i think i no who would get more votes.only my opinion thou.

You keep misquoting me. I never said Carter didn't have talent.

[chunky 6,092]

You keep misquoting me. I never said Carter didn't have talent.

 

I think that sidney is having trouble understanding what you are saying; I'm with you.

 

Sidney : Kenny Carter WAS a brilliant and talented speedway rider. However, his success came largely as a result of hard work, and an incredible determination. Joe Screen was much more of a "natural" motorcyclist, but never had that little extra mentally to achieve the same sort of success. That's not being disrespectful to either Joe or Kenny in any way, but a simple fact. Carter's determination brought him incredible success on tracks that others considered "unrideable"; Screen could be untouchable on a track that suited him, but had trouble adapting to others.

 

If you look at any sport, you will find that determination/effort/confidence will eventually bring more success than natural talent and potential. Simply put, it doesn't matter how good you are if you can't handle the situations that are thrown at you.

 

Steve

 

 

 

[waiheke1 4,295]

I'd say he rates below all time greats Craven, Peter Collins and Mike Lee.

I'd put im in the same category of great British riders such as Havelock, Loram,Louis, Simmons, Jessup, C Morton etc.

You could put equally valid arguments (IMHO) for him ranking above or below any given rider in that category.

And I'd rank him above very good British riders such as Tatum, Les Collins, Doncaster etc.

 

In terms of the discussion on natural ability. The great Ivan Mauger himself points out that he (MAuger)didn't have the same natural talent of someone like Peter Collins, but that noone did more practice than he and Ole Olsen, and that's why they achieved more World titles than someone like PC, who because he could rely on natural ability never put in as much work as they did. You could apply the same to the likes of the Moran brothers who were as talented as the grear Danes of the 80s, but achieved nowhere near as much.

 

You can argue or or against the natural abiliy of Carter, but one point to note is that while his form tailed off after 82, that could be linked (according to both his biograpghy and his brother's autobiography)to both injury and that he didn't have a proper mechanic from 84 onwards I think. To be World Champion, you need the blend of natural talent, hard work, good equipment, to stay injury free and a bit of luck at the right times - I don't think Kenny ever had all of those at once , but that's not to say he would never have been World Champion if not for his untinely demise .

In 85, he was racing almost as well as ever (British Champ, overseas runner up, dropped only 1 point in world Pairs final, 10pt+ average)- so I certainly don't think he could have been written off.

 

on the 81 World Final, as seems to have been some discussion on that. If n-one had suferred engine troubles, then heading into the final 4 heats standings would probably have read Penhall 12, Jessup 11, Carter 10, Gundersen 9, Knudsen 9, Olsen 7. All speculation from there, but I suspect Jessup (who had only beeen beaten from the gate by Penhall all night) would hav beaten Knudsen, and needing to win the final I think Penhall would have beaten Carter. Which would likely have left Carter facing Gundersen in a run off for 3rd, which would very much have been 50/50 who would have won (though given gundersen's later record in run-offs I'd lean towards him).

 

And, around Hyde Rd I would rate Kenny Carter as the best British rider I saw in the 80s, just edging out Chris Morton (the two had about a 50/50 head to head record in league matches, but I'd go Kenny on the basis of his two BLRC). Was he as good as Mauger/Olsen/Collins at their peak, impossible to say, I supect not, but given we are talking absolute all time greats on a track which would rank amongst their favourites that is hardly a criticism. For what its worth, PC was still pretty handy around Hyde Rd in the 80s, but I don't recall ever seeing him beating Kenny in my time (81 onwards), possibly once the Northern League Riders Champs.