Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted October 14, 2011 You say that Darcy would have given Greg a massive run for his money in a one off World Final this year. He would have needed to get into it first, and he failed to get past the semi finals of the SGP qualifying rounds when only one of the current GP riders was competing in them. Given this fact, I can't understand why you would be so confident of his ability to make the World Final with those other 14 riders involved in the qualifiers as well! Hmm, you're missing the point that the number of places available each year to, er, qualify for the NEXT year once one's outside the existing GP field is very small... In the old system you qualified for a World Championship in THAT year (held in September) and if say the host nation was allowed 4 slots, there were 12 other places up for grabs... Don't seriously tell me that you don't think Darcy would've qualified under such a set up for the mythical 2011 World Final..!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ImpartialOne 160 Posted October 14, 2011 THAT'S more like it I don't know how you managed that, but it was almost as sweet as the 2007 Cardiff final itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,075 Posted October 14, 2011 Hmm, you're missing the point that the number of places available each year to, er, qualify for the NEXT year once one's outside the existing GP field is very small... In the old system you qualified for a World Championship in THAT year (held in September) and if say the host nation was allowed 4 slots, there were 12 other places up for grabs... Don't seriously tell me that you don't think Darcy would've qualified under such a set up for the mythical 2011 World Final..!! Parsloes,give it up You seemingly so often fail to understand a reasonable argument for the sake of some point you hold to be the truth.Like HenryW points out,if darcy failed to qualify for the Vetlanda behind the likes of Ulamek,Madsen and Watt,why are you so certain he would qualify for a World Final if he was also up against the GP riders as well?If Olsen could fail to get through to a World Final,i sure think Darcy could also fail Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HenryW 1,178 Posted October 14, 2011 Hmm, you're missing the point that the number of places available each year to, er, qualify for the NEXT year once one's outside the existing GP field is very small... In the old system you qualified for a World Championship in THAT year (held in September) and if say the host nation was allowed 4 slots, there were 12 other places up for grabs... Don't seriously tell me that you don't think Darcy would've qualified under such a set up for the mythical 2011 World Final..!! As iris has already pointed out, Darcy didn't just fail to qualify for the SGP in 2011 through the qualifying rounds, he failed to qualify for the SGP race off...And that was in a year that, as far as I can recall, had the least number of existing SGP riders in the qualifying series ever. There were 3 "semi finals" for the race off this year. Darcy came 8th in his. In case you don't know, in that meeting he was behind Lindback, Zagar, Ulamek, Madsen, Vaculik, Watt and Davidsson. In the other 2 semi finals Ljung, Walasek, Buczkowski, Protasiewicz, Kasprzak, Pedersen(Bj), Gustafsson, Kylmakorpi, Golubovski, Monberg, Andersen, Ruud, Hansen and Wolbert all finished higher than 8th. Look at that list of riders that did better than Darcy in the qualifiers this year...Do you still think he would have been fighting Greg for the World title in an old style one off final? Don't get me wrong, knowing what Darcy CAN do on a speedway bike, I suspect he was unlucky that day...BUT, that was what happened every year in the old system. The fact that he has been recognised as one of the best and offered a place despite his failure makes me think that this system works better, just as Emil's inclusion did the year he joined. Personally, I think you have made a better argument for the current system than the old one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 12 Posted October 14, 2011 Tbh, I can't understand why people seem to want youngsters like Ward, Holder, Woffy, Eddie etc. to fail and cream themselves over the old 'uns. No disrespect to the likes of Greg but it hardly represents a rosy picture of the future of the sport that in the 2011 series he was by far the top man - at his age.There will always been a World Champion. It's not like when Greg, Tomasz, Nicki and Crumpy retire the sport will die. AJ, Emil, Jarek and co will take over. So what if by then they're 30+? And then when they retire it'll be Ward, Holder and the probably not yet races a meeting riders that take over... In what way is that a bad thing? Weird, odd and different maybe. Had to smile at the comments at the beginning about Hancock doing well to maintain his enthusiasm after such a long career. Who would have bet on him being World Champion four years later and still maintaining that ever-present record? Parsloes, obviously! Have you not read the thread! Durh! I'm only amazed that in 2 GP appearances, Darcy has not won them! After all, he's win a World Final so I dont see the difference! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grand Central 2,654 Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) Trying to take the fractious childish element out of matters. Can we just establish where this thread has led us. Will Darcy Ward be World Champion in the future? ... A few people think he will, and a few people don't think that he will. No surprise there really as none of us are clairvoyant. Perhaps, a more productive topic of discussion might be on 'What would it take to improve Darcy's chance of becoming World Champion?'. Several people have pointed out the Grand Prix seemes to have increased the longevity of International Class Speedway riders. Some people seem to think this a bad thing; others do not. But why? Some people feel that the GP system has made it more difficult for new talent to jump to the top, whilst others have given arguments that the old one-off World Final was hardly much better. Is it just the same or is it for different reasons? I just wonder ... is a lot of this not down to the influence of the TEAM that surrounds riders in the GP today. Aren't Greg, Jason, Nicki and the like able to sustain the top class level of performance needed over the long series because of the team that does so much more of the work than in the past. It's my feeeling that the newcomers to the GP scene must be totally outclassed before they even reach the tapes with the GROSSLY different level of backroom that the best established men now have in place. The days of well-meaning Dads in the pits and mechanics that were schoolmates has no place in the GPs anymore, does it? Wouldn't the quickest and easiest way to get someone like Darcy to 'break through' be to get that TEAM in place as soon as possible ... and I don't mean a just a bunch of Aussies that he is friends with, or those that are totally good enough for Elite League ... I mean a really top professional team with years of GP experience who can do EVERYTHING else to a modern GP standard, at the track and away from it. Then Darcy could just do what he does best ... but with the right guidance. Edited October 15, 2011 by Grand Central Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted October 15, 2011 Okay - I take it that the majority of posters on here are more than happy with the way things are... Must just be me who'd prefer to see the odds stacked just a little better in favour of the young & up-and-coming as opposed to the old and established But I would just say this: - it's an absolute FACT that the World Championship atm is being dominated by an older aged range of riders than EVER before. Throwing in Ivan's geriatric win in '79 ain't gonna change the fact that back in the days of the WF it WAS easier to arrive on the scene and break through to the very top: egs are not always of the very young (like Lee) - check out how long it took John Louis to get from convertee from 'Scrambling' to second division Speedway to 4th. in a WF... What was it, a couple of years!!) - and it's also an absolute mathematical FACT that it's far easier to stay in the GPs once in than it is to qualify.. 8 out of 15 guaranteed; though in reality another two or sometimes three more of less guaranteed through the seeded route. Come 9th. or 10th..? Oh give 'em another chance... Be British, yes well you're needed... So it is without question more difficult to break in. I wish those of you who fundamentally disagree with me would at least recognise those two facts.. Then you MIGHT acknowledge the frustration the combo of the two is likely to give to young riders surveying the current WC situation and comtemplating if there's ever going to be a chance for them. Henry made a good point Valid reasons for older riders dominating like never before? 2. The sport is more expensive, professional and technical than ever before, ensuring that experience and investment are much more important, which obviously the younger riders don't have as much of. This I don't doubt is a good reason too... And if so, that's a big shame ... As the sport I first loved back in the '70s was meant to be about the skill of the man on the bike not the superior quality of the bike and its back-up team in the pits... The latter what was other (inferior imo) motor sports went for... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PHILIPRISING 7,298 Posted October 15, 2011 IS there a better or more skilful rider around than the new World Champion? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,075 Posted October 15, 2011 This I don't doubt is a good reason too... And if so, that's a big shame ... As the sport I first loved back in the '70s was meant to be about the skill of the man on the bike not the superior quality of the bike and its back-up team in the pits... The latter what was other (inferior imo) motor sports went for... For sure things have changed a great deal since those days back in the 70s Parsloes.Everything has really.But right back in those early days in the 30s workshops were set up by teams such as Wembley and all the bikes were checked up and tuned up to give their riders an advantage.It isn't as though technical advances have just happened since GP days.Mauger was always looking out for any technical advance that would help give him another advantage.Egon Müller i think was another who tried to get the best.You could also look at Gundersen having Olsen in his team.Long gone are the days when riders turned up with one bike on the back of their car.People in general,not just sportsmen and women are fitter now at a later age than back in the 60s and 70s.But like it has been pointed out,there has been a fast track into the GPs for a fair number of World U21 champs.Sure it is hard to hit the ground running,when most around them have been doing the series for years.That doesn't mean that these guys are at the top because of their bikes or their team.They have to go out there and do the physical and mental part of the job themselves.And as you can see year after year they can battle with young upstarts like Emil and Holder. I too did love the days of one off Finals when Wembley was packed out.But the GPs have moved speedway into the 21stC.It is a totally different experience as a fan to go to one of these GPs.It is just so professionally run,that you can't really compare it to a normal speedway meeting.And it does produce some great racing at times,even if most of the riders are almost twice as old as some of the track reserves or in the case of Mikkel B,more than twice as old Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted October 15, 2011 I too did love the days of one off Finals when Wembley was packed out.But the GPs have moved speedway into the 21stC.It is a totally different experience as a fan to go to one of these GPs.It is just so professionally run,that you can't really compare it to a normal speedway meeting.And it does produce some great racing at times,even if most of the riders are almost twice as old as some of the track reserves or in the case of Mikkel B,more than twice as old I agree and, as you know, I completely respect your opinions but all I'd say is that yes, it has taken the sport into the 21st. century by mimicing things like F1 but whereas F1 has probably never been in a healthier state, our sport is not exactly thriving; and maybe, just maybe, there is another way and that is to take a pause, consider the options and maybe look to what used to work as a possible option.. When the sport is dead we'll certainly have plenty of time on our hands to reflect on it..!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ImpartialOne 160 Posted October 15, 2011 I agree and, as you know, I completely respect your opinions but all I'd say is that yes, it has taken the sport into the 21st. century by mimicing things like F1 but whereas F1 has probably never been in a healthier state, our sport is not exactly thriving; and maybe, just maybe, there is another way and that is to take a pause, consider the options and maybe look to what used to work as a possible option.. When the sport is dead we'll certainly have plenty of time on our hands to reflect on it..!! But the GPs are working. It's the British scene that's dying on it's arse and we know who to blame for that. It's certainly not IMG that is trying to kill the sport. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted October 15, 2011 But the GPs are working. It's the British scene that's dying on it's arse and we know who to blame for that. It's certainly not IMG that is trying to kill the sport. Okay a fair point. But the British scene would benefit from a greater connection generally between the World Championship and the sport in this country... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ImpartialOne 160 Posted October 15, 2011 Okay a fair point. But the British scene would benefit from a greater connection generally between the World Championship and the sport in this country... What do you think could be done to achieve that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted October 15, 2011 What do you think could be done to achieve that? Well, obviously from my angle I'm going to say revert to a season-long WC system which involves qualifiers at GB tracks... But as that's unlikely - it would help if the GB GP could at some point be a decisive one (ie near or at the end of the series...) - at least next year it will be a fair bit later than previouis Cardiff ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ImpartialOne 160 Posted October 16, 2011 Well, obviously from my angle I'm going to say revert to a season-long WC system which involves qualifiers at GB tracks... But as that's unlikely - it would help if the GB GP could at some point be a decisive one (ie near or at the end of the series...) - at least next year it will be a fair bit later than previouis Cardiff ones. Is that all they need to do to connect more with British speedway? Just move Cardiff to the end of the season? How will this help? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
