The White Knight 9,039 Posted October 8, 2011 No it wasn't. OH YES IT WAS!!!!! Well - it IS becoming a bit of a Pantomime on this Thread. :party: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 38 Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) OH YES IT WAS!!!!! Well - it IS becoming a bit of a Pantomime on this Thread. :party: (Enter left) Mother goose...... followed by Big fat Dave..... Edited October 8, 2011 by Nigel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) Where does this fall into the debate? It would seem there is evidence that track motorcycling of a sort took place in England at Canning Town, east london, 20 odd years before Johnnie Hoskins started his efforts at Maitland. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/8300 Besides the link given in my quote, here's another item about pre-Maitland days. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/8313 Edited October 8, 2011 by speedyguy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted October 9, 2011 (Enter left) Mother goose...... followed by Big fat Dave..... It's actually a Magpie Goose, Nigel, and the Goose Season's open in the NT - no goose is safe, especially with heavily-armed alcoholic drug abusers wandering around loose, so maybe you'd better stay at home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) I'm not trying to defend anything, Norbold. I posted a statement by Ian Hoskins - you seem to have adopted a 'Shoot the Messenger' approach. And here's a quote I made earlier: I'm sure everyone who's been to Maitland and seen the commemorative plaque under the Grandstand would agree - this is the birthplace of Motorcycle Speedway and Johnnie Hoskins was the Godfather. Anyway, enough of the name calling. I would be interested in hearing, Dave and Olddon and White Knight come to that, your views on the meetings held at Townsville, Thebarton, Rockhampton and Newcastle prior to December 1923 and also your views on riders like Don Johns, Albert "Shrimp" Burns, Eddie Brinck and Maldwyn Jones. Let's keep it all factual. Let's try and make this a serious discussion as the subject really deserves that. Edited October 9, 2011 by norbold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Anyway, enough of the name calling. I would be interested in hearing, Dave and Olddon and White Knight come to that, your views on the meetings held at Townsville, Thebarton, Rockhampton and Newcastle prior to December 1923 and also your views on riders like Don Johns, Albert "Shrimp" Burns, Eddie Brinck and Maldwyn Jones. Let's keep it all factual and forget try to score points. Let's try and make this a serious discussion as the subject really deserves that. I think a reference to these links sent over before give some guide to what may have gone prior Maitland in 1923 although they're not about Australian tracks but some in the UK and Europe. I know the name Maldwyn Jones, who some claimed was the first broadsider and that he was a Welshman living in the USA. But wasn't he a board track rider more than a dirt-track racer? http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/8300 http://sports.groups...ay/message/8313 JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited October 9, 2011 by olddon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 9, 2011 The four tracks I have mentioned are all in Australia and all held meetings similar to the one held at West Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins. Indeed, unlike the meeting at West Maitland which was held on grass, the meeting at Thebarton was even held on cinders. The four American riders I mentioned all raced on dirt tracks and all broadsided in speedway fashion before the First World War and into the early 20s, again all before West Maitland. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) The new book about pioneer Australian rider Col Stewart, plus a letter published in 'Speedway Star' sometime in the 1970s from veteran Bill Crampton, who actually rode in the first meeting at Maitland in 1923, IMO give backing to Johnnie Hoskins claims about the start of speedway. I wonder if these views will also coincide with what Ian Hoskins article on the subject of his father Johnnie and Maitland in 1923 will bring to light. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/10709 Edited October 13, 2011 by olddon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted October 13, 2011 Whatever happens, Jack, hopefully we've stirred up a bit of interest in the mag, which can't be all bad, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 13, 2011 Yes BFD, quite right. There was a fear elsewhere that this topic was going off the boil. We don't want that to happen. Here is a link from elsewhere in regard to Col Stewart's opinion. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/10709 JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) I've just hunted around for more about John Hoskins and Bill Crampton at Maitland in 1923. It could be that not only did Johnnie stage the first SPEEDWAY meeting but actual rode in the sport's first race - according to this anyway. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/9764 JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited October 14, 2011 by olddon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted October 14, 2011 The four tracks I have mentioned are all in Australia and all held meetings similar to the one held at West Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins. Indeed, unlike the meeting at West Maitland which was held on grass, the meeting at Thebarton was even held on cinders. The four American riders I mentioned all raced on dirt tracks and all broadsided in speedway fashion before the First World War and into the early 20s, again all before West Maitland. I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 14, 2011 I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold. Now we're getting to the crux of the debate. The first SPEEDWAY meeting. There were other disciplines like dirt track and board racing before Maitland, and there have been others since that first SPEEDWAY meeting at Maitland in December 1923. Likewise other disciplines since then - mostly on four wheels. But BFD's comment has adequately summed up the whole matter and , hopefully, will be backed by Ian Hoskins article on the same trend. When the first SPEEDWAY meeting took place. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 14, 2011 It depends what you mean by speedway of course. But, whatever it is, the meeting at West Maitland was no different to those other Carnival meetings held before it in Australia. West Maitland 1923 was definitely not the first SPEEDWAY meeting. Motor bike racing was held as part of an overall Carnival programme as it had been many times before. It was also held on grass, whereas Thebarton for one had actually been held on cinders. If the definition of speedway is riders not using brakes and sliding round corners then the Americans were at it back in c. 1912. This didn't happen at West Maitland anyway. There was nothing special about the West Maitland meeting that hadn't been done before apart from Johnnie Hoskins' showmanship and his later claims in his own inimitable way that it was the first. What was important in the development of speedway about West Maitland was that regular Carnival meetings featuring motor bike racing were held there in 1923/24, but these were promoted by Billy Dart and Campbell and Du Frocq not Johnnie Hoskins, whose only involvement seems to have been the December 1923 meeting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 14, 2011 Coming to Bill Crampton, memories and oral histories are notoriously unreliable. For example I once asked Wally Green what he could remember about winning the Division Three Match race Championship from Bert Roger in 1948. His answer was that he'd never won the Championship. So, do I trust Wally's memories or contemporary newspapers, speedway press reports and Stenner's Annual, who all say he did and give reports of his victory? The fact is that Bill Crampton had raced in motor cycle events on a showground in the Hunter Valley BEFORE he took part in Johnnie Hoskins' meeting. And Bill wasn't the only one who raced at that carnival at West Maitland which featured motor cycles who had raced on a showground previously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites