Could Mike Bast Have Been A Force In World Speedway?

[waiheke1 4,295]

of course i'm pleased i saw the old format, went to two finals (83 and 85), loved them both though the racing in 83 was dire and on neither occasion did I get the winner I wanted (morton and S Moran). Also, loved going to the qualifying meetings, the tension,, some great races etc. I have great memories of the old system and I remember being disapointed when they were replaced by the GP system - however, indisputably the GP is better at determining who the best rider in the world is, and I can see no rationale whatsoever for going back to the old one-off system as a replacement for the GP system (as mentioned preivously I'd be happy to see a pared-down knock-out World Championship run in parallel if it could be made to work).

[chunky 6,108]

I am not keen on Hearn really but i wouldnt say snooker is a closed shop now.

 

I'm not saying that either. What I'm querying is why he would open up snooker to more qualifiers, but then do the total opposite with darts; the PDC was never intended to be a closed shop...

 

Steve

[stratton 1,491]

I'm not saying that either. What I'm querying is why he would open up snooker to more qualifiers, but then do the total opposite with darts; the PDC was never intended to be a closed shop...

 

Steve

Strange Steve i watch darts but have no idea what his vision is on that sport.There has been alot of moans in the snooker fraternity because some players are losing money on some PD events. First prize in places like India 10,000 barely covering your costs and thats if you win the event.So it isnt all plain sailing Hearn is a bit of a dictator but i do think he is in danger of over SATURATING the sport.

[chunky 6,108]

Strange Steve i watch darts but have no idea what his vision is on that sport.There has been alot of moans in the snooker fraternity because some players are losing money on some PD events. First prize in places like India 10,000 barely covering your costs and thats if you win the event.So it isnt all plain sailing Hearn is a bit of a dictator but i do think he is in danger of over SATURATING the sport.

 

It's pretty much the same with darts. There are so many more events these days, and while the rewards may be there, so too are the expenses. It's okay if you actually win, and it's okay for the top few, but for the others who need to travel in order to qualify for the majors, it's very very difficult. If it's that hard for European-based players, you can imagine how hard it is for Americans or Australians, say.

 

Of course, this is not far off what has happened for some of the GP riders, even going back to Billy Hamill. Then, there was also the ill-fated attempt at running the old World Team Cup on a similar basis!

 

Steve

[The White Knight 9,039]

I didn't say that some riders from these nations hadn't entered qualifying, I said there was no national qualification process... In the past (sorry for the 'P' word again!) the British Final was one stage on the way to further (international)World Championship qualifiers, now the winner or highest positioned rider not already in it, can look forward to what, er, a basically meaningless one-off 'wild card' position at Cardiff..

 

Hear, hear!!! :approve:

 

Gone a bit off Thread on this.

 

No - I don't think Mike Bast would have been a World Champion.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

Dead right. FIFA World Cup? Absolutely farcical - hosts and defending champions are automatically granted a place. IAAF World Athletics Championships? Drivel - each defending gold medallist automatically qualifies. Formula One World Championship? Meaningless - all the top drivers are chosen by the top teams. Rugby World Cup? Utter nonsense - all top nations are all seeded. Grand Slam Tennis and Golf? What a joke - all the world's top ranked players don't have to go through qualifying.

 

Keep up - the defending World Cup Football champs are no longer seeded. And even they were that's hardly the same as the top eight plus getting automatic qualification.

Have no idea if what you say about the World Athletics championships is true - it sounds unlikely but I'll bow to your greater knowledge. Quite often the defending champs no longer compete in the T&F event they are the defending champs of though - through retirement or change of event.

And I've said before the day we actually boast of having the same elitest and cash-led system as Formula 1 was a sad day!

[fatface 2,556]

 

 

Keep up - the defending World Cup Football champs are no longer seeded. And even they were that's hardly the same as the top eight plus getting automatic qualification.

Have no idea if what you say about the World Athletics championships is true - it sounds unlikely but I'll bow to your greater knowledge. Quite often the defending champs no longer compete in the T&F event they are the defending champs of though - through retirement or change of event.

And I've said before the day we actually boast of having the same elitest and cash-led system as Formula 1 was a sad day!

Seems the Football World Cup has changed - I did not know that. Still, it was worth making that one mistake just to have the delicious irony of you telling me to "keep up". :-)

 

On the rest, I am bang on. I have worked in athletics for the last 10-11 years, so you'll have to trust me on that one. If you still have doubts, there's a link below which should convince you. Not sure what you are on about when you say 'quite often defending champs no longer compete in the track and field championship' either. Berlin 2009 winners Bolt, Bekele, Idowu, Ennis, Campbell-Brown and the vast majority of defending champs were fit and well, present and correct for Daegu 2011 (in the same events too). Probably best if you try not to hammer that point home and discus it no further, until someone relays the truth to you.

 

http://mobi.supersport.com/athletics/international/news/110621/Bolt_will_bypass_Jamaican_meet

 

Anyway...back to speedway. Interesting topic. I - like virtually - everyone on this thread can only go on facts, stats and second hand opinions of those in the know. I'd have to say yes, Mike Bast could have been a force. If he was the leading rider in the US for so many years in an era that brought through Penhall, Autrey, Schwartz, then you'd have to say if they could cut it, then he probably could too. Don't be fooled by the 1977 Intercontinental at White City either. There was another guy well off the pace that day - Bruce Penhall.

 

I've always suspected that the skills required to ride a big track are more easily acquired than the subtle throttle control required for small tracks. If Bast's American contemporaries adapted, then I reckon he would have too. Clearly, he had a comfortable existence in the US and didn't have the hunger for international success that Penhall did. In terms of lifestyle, you'd have to be really motivated to leave California for Cradley!

Edited January 20, 2012 by falcace

[stratton 1,491]

Seems the Football World Cup has changed - I did not know that. Still, it was worth making that one mistake just to have the delicious irony of you telling me to "keep up". :-)

 

On the rest, I am bang on. I have worked in athletics for the last 10-11 years, so you'll have to trust me on that one. If you still have doubts, there's a link below which should convince you. Not sure what you are on about when you say 'quite often defending champs no longer compete in the track and field championship' either. Berlin 2009 winners Bolt, Bekele, Idowu, Ennis, Campbell-Brown and the vast majority of defending champs were fit and well, present and correct for Daegu 2011 (in the same events too). Probably best if you try not to hammer that point home and discus it no further, until someone relays the truth to you.

 

http://mobi.superspo...s_Jamaican_meet

 

Anyway...back to speedway. Interesting topic. I - like virtually - everyone on this thread can only go on facts, stats and second hand opinions of those in the know. I'd have to say yes, Mike Bast could have been a force. If he was the leading rider in the US for so many years in an era that brought through Penhall, Autrey, Schwartz, then you'd have to say if they could cut it, then he probably could too. Don't be fooled by the 1977 Intercontinental at White City either. There was another guy well off the pace that day - Bruce Penhall.

 

I've always suspected that the skills required to ride a big track are more easily acquired than the subtle throttle control required for small tracks. If Bast's American contemporaries adapted, then I reckon he would have too. Clearly, he had a comfortable existence in the US and didn't have the hunger for international success that Penhall did. In terms of lifestyle, you'd have to be really motivated to leave California for Cradley!

I disagree i think costa mesa [ect he was comfortable that day in 77, Penhall looked competetive beat Bast ,Bast looked way of the pace.Penhall also beat Bast regular in the usa .I also disagree on the point about riding the larger tracks that it is easier ive seen loads of riders of class never master the big ones.Jessup Kennett Simmons to name a few i am not saying they couldnt ride them to win top class meetings at Hyde rd Sheffield they couldnt.My opinion is Bast deep down wasnt confident anough in his own ability outside his safety zone.

[oldace 1,678]

I disagree i think costa mesa [ect he was comfortable that day in 77, Penhall looked competetive beat Bast ,Bast looked way of the pace.Penhall also beat Bast regular in the usa .I also disagree on the point about riding the larger tracks that it is easier ive seen loads of riders of class never master the big ones.Jessup Kennett Simmons to name a few i am not saying they couldnt ride them to win top class meetings at Hyde rd Sheffield they couldnt.My opinion is Bast deep down wasnt confident anough in his own ability outside his safety zone.

 

Kennet! OK he was a small track expert but to say he never mastered the big ones isn't right. He was pretty darn good round White City in his 3 years there!!!!. Dave Jessup always rode bigger tracks round the white line and at Hyde Road, Sheffield etc it was easy for the likes of PC, Mort, Dougie Wyer to pick him off.

 

Falcace is spot on though. As long as he has a quick enough bike a rider who learns his trade on a small track will get round a big one ok. Not quite so in reverse, someone learning their trade at say Sheffield may struggle to adapt to a smaller track. There are always exceptions though.

[stratton 1,491]

Kennet! OK he was a small track expert but to say he never mastered the big ones isn't right. He was pretty darn good round White City in his 3 years there!!!!. Dave Jessup always rode bigger tracks round the white line and at Hyde Road, Sheffield etc it was easy for the likes of PC, Mort, Dougie Wyer to pick him off.

 

Falcace is spot on though. As long as he has a quick enough bike a rider who learns his trade on a small track will get round a big one ok. Not quite so in reverse, someone learning their trade at say Sheffield may struggle to adapt to a smaller track. There are always exceptions though.

Kennett was always decent at Blunsdon but for me never really regularly beat Crump Petersen Autrey [ 1 season ] the big guns.Also in my exsperience White City was always slick as a board suited a white line er.Jessup i wasnt a fan of a gater for me, and on the real race tracks wasnt a threat.With the little track/ big track point i agree but i also think it happened the other way as well. [ examples ] in the 60s 70 s and 80s Pendlebury ,Paulson , Haynes , Sharpe ,Kentwell, Baker, Janke, P,Carr , A. Smith , good at home big track riders away pretty poor. The other way round decent little track riders D.Kennett, Geer, Gachet, E.Dugard, Standing,Woods [nearly top class at home ]excellent at Crayford] Buck, were pretty poor on the big pacey tracks.Also years ago there were not many technical tracks about most were middle size to big excluding Wimbledon Eastbourne who were sometimes in the 2nd tier.Bast for example maybe if he had rode for Wimbledon he would of done well at home away some big tracks to master also Kings Lynn Cradley proper racing tracks.I dont think he would of averaged over 8 away maybe less than that.?

[oldace 1,678]

Kennett was always decent at Blunsdon but for me never really regularly beat Crump Petersen Autrey [ 1 season ] the big guns.Also in my exsperience White City was always slick as a board suited a white line er.Jessup i wasnt a fan of a gater for me, and on the real race tracks wasnt a threat.With the little track/ big track point i agree but i also think it happened the other way as well. [ examples ] in the 60s 70 s and 80s Pendlebury ,Paulson , Haynes , Sharpe ,Kentwell, Baker, Janke, P,Carr , A. Smith , good at home big track riders away pretty poor. The other way round decent little track riders D.Kennett, Geer, Gachet, E.Dugard, Standing,Woods [nearly top class at home ]excellent at Crayford] Buck, were pretty poor on the big pacey tracks.Also years ago there were not many technical tracks about most were middle size to big excluding Wimbledon Eastbourne who were sometimes in the 2nd tier.Bast for example maybe if he had rode for Wimbledon he would of done well at home away some big tracks to master also Kings Lynn Cradley proper racing tracks.I dont think he would of averaged over 8 away maybe less than that.?

 

Is your keyboard up the swanny or did you intend that look. It's a little difficult to wade through, ditch the exagerrated bolding up Sidney

[chunky 6,108]

As far as Kennett, he certainly could ride the biggies pretty well for a small-track rider. I do remember him scoring a 21-point maximum at Swindon, which is better than "decent" I would say!

 

Comparing Bast to Penhall and others is not as easy as it sounds. Obviously a small-track expert, and a very accomplished motorcyclist, I'm still not sure whether he would have had the same impact. He never had the same ambition and drive as many of his compatriots, so it is difficult to judge. The fact that he preferred to be a "big fish in a small pond" indicated that money (and the Californian lifestyle) was more important to him than the desire to prove himself internationally. I think that he was remarkably comfortable with his success and reputation in his own back yard, and didn't feel that he needed to prove anything to the rest of the world, or more importantly, to himself.

 

Steve

[SCB 0]

I didn't say that some riders from these nations hadn't entered qualifying, I said there was no national qualification process... In the past (sorry for the 'P' word again!) the British Final was one stage on the way to further (international)World Championship qualifiers, now the winner or highest positioned rider not already in it, can look forward to what, er, a basically meaningless one-off 'wild card' position at Cardiff..

The British final IS a qualifier for the GPs.

[stratton 1,491]

As far as Kennett, he certainly could ride the biggies pretty well for a small-track rider. I do remember him scoring a 21-point maximum at Swindon, which is better than "decent" I would say!

 

Comparing Bast to Penhall and others is not as easy as it sounds. Obviously a small-track expert, and a very accomplished motorcyclist, I'm still not sure whether he would have had the same impact. He never had the same ambition and drive as many of his compatriots, so it is difficult to judge. The fact that he preferred to be a "big fish in a small pond" indicated that money (and the Californian lifestyle) was more important to him than the desire to prove himself internationally. I think that he was remarkably comfortable with his success and reputation in his own back yard, and didn't feel that he needed to prove anything to the rest of the world, or more importantly, to himself.

 

Steve

No i dont disagree on that Chunky, Kennett was a very accomplished rider and you are right he was good at blunsdon.Himself, Simmo Jessup Davis to name a few for me were not capable of winning meetings at Hyde rd; Sheffield; Halifax ;against world class fields.And all those riders had good aquipment also for me it is a myth to say it is easy with decent aquipment to ride big racey tracks.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly 495]

The British final IS a qualifier for the GPs.

Please explain how