The Know 221 Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) Even though this years GP did not include Darcy Ward, Neils Christian Iversen or Krzysztof Kasprzak but included Chris Harris, Peter Ljung and Bjarne Bedersen? thats because they were not in it. one by his own choice, two didnt qualify so not good enough on the night. i do agree the ones you said about were dire. you forgot Hans though lol. Edited December 11, 2012 by The Know Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowCaptain 57 Posted December 11, 2012 Right - Mark Loram SHOULD have won the World Championship because under the System and Rules employed then, and now, that is the way the scoring works. My contention is that under the old 'One Off' System you had a Winner who finished FIRST ie WON the Meeting. You did not have a Winner who had a multitude of Second Places in GPs who actually won nothing apart from the Championship.. I hope that clarifies my position. I can't make it any plainer. TWK - The person who wins an individual meeting is the best rider in the meeting. The point of a GP series is that whoever accumulates the most points over a season is the best rider over a season, and deserves the accolade of World Champion. Mark Loram winning the world championship without a GP win was unusual, but his performance was the most consistent across a variety of tracks. A rider winning the single meeting championship may have gone through a series of qualifying meetings, but could easily be in that championship meeting by only finishing in the top six of all of the qualifiers. Much more opportunity for a fluke victory there than across a GP series accumulating points in each meeting. Speedway is concentrated in about five countries, but there are excellent individual riders from other countries, too. How can any qualification system take into account the claims of the individuals as well as the claims of the major speedway countries? No matter how many disputes there are about the claims of some riders who are not in the GP series, fifteen of the top riders in the world will compete in the series, joined, in each of the GPs, by another rider with a claim to be in the series. Difficult to deny that the rider who gets the most points from that series is a worthy World Champion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,040 Posted December 11, 2012 I agree with most of what you say SC. Whilst I DID prefer the 'One Off' World Final - I realise that not everyone agrees with me - Fair enough. I have recently had my views on that shown to be wrong in one sense. My problem is, and always has been, the Qualifying method to get in to the GPs. I just believe that everyone should get a chance. Some Riders will NEVER get a chance to test themselves against the very BEST Riders in the World - if they did, you never know, we might discover a new World Champion.. I am not arguing my case for the sake of argument - I am arguing my case because I believe passionately in Fair Play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 11, 2012 Now you are being silly. Then, as now, and as always in fact, you had a winner who had more points than anyone else under whatever format was in place at the time. Like I said you have applied the GP win crireria to someone being world champion, it never existed any more than race wins were a factor under the old system. You have got yourself into a hole and rather than admit you are totally wrong you keep on digging No Oldace he isn't silly!! i liked Mark i think to win the world championship without winning a round is a different QUALITY? To win a one a one off meeting is a massive achievement, a GP Scenario is so different . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPEEDY69 1,282 Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) I agree with most of what you say SC. Whilst I DID prefer the 'One Off' World Final - I realise that not everyone agrees with me - Fair enough. I have recently had my views on that shown to be wrong in one sense. My problem is, and always has been, the Qualifying method to get in to the GPs. I just believe that everyone should get a chance. Some Riders will NEVER get a chance to test themselves against the very BEST Riders in the World - if they did, you never know, we might discover a new World Champion.. I am not arguing my case for the sake of argument - I am arguing my case because I believe passionately in Fair Play. Completely agree about qualifying - sometimes riders have really great years which they never repeat and during that year they should have the chance to be world champion. The biggest example of that was NKI last year, 1st 2nd and 3rd in Poland, Sweden and UK leagues. Edited December 12, 2012 by SPEEDY69 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 12, 2012 I agree with most of what you say SC. Whilst I DID prefer the 'One Off' World Final - I realise that not everyone agrees with me - Fair enough. I have recently had my views on that shown to be wrong in one sense. My problem is, and always has been, the Qualifying method to get in to the GPs. I just believe that everyone should get a chance. Some Riders will NEVER get a chance to test themselves against the very BEST Riders in the World - if they did, you never know, we might discover a new World Champion.. I am not arguing my case for the sake of argument - I am arguing my case because I believe passionately in Fair Play. You are wrong again. There is qualifying every year, so to state that some riders will NEVER get the chance is wrong. No Oldace he isn't silly!! i liked Mark i think to win the world championship without winning a round is a different QUALITY? To win a one a one off meeting is a massive achievement, a GP Scenario is so different . You're right. You need to be better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 12, 2012 You are wrong again. There is qualifying every year, so to state that some riders will NEVER get the chance is wrong. You're right. You need to be better. Is being placed in 12 rounds (ie) semi finals minimum, harder than say winning 6 rounds? i would say winning six rounds should be a lot more rewarding is it at the moment in it's form.? As for everyone being able to enter the qualifying system everyone has a chance that is a myth.A lot of riders just can't afford it, a lot of young riders i would imagine would love to say enter the under 21s it is just not viable. Travelling to places like Slovenia with no financial help,it is impossible did Joe Haines say that?.The GP series is in affect a closed shop if you have wealthy parents or backers maybe but everyone on the same playing field as years gone by NO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Long Eye 278 Posted December 12, 2012 Even though this years GP did not include Darcy Ward, Neils Christian Iversen or Krzysztof Kasprzak but included Chris Harris, Peter Ljung and Bjarne Bedersen? Who was to know how well NKI and KK would go this year in League matches? Ward had a chance to compete but declined. What are the organisers supposed to do, hold the GPs in November and December and pick the entire field based on League performances? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gavan 5,070 Posted December 12, 2012 You are NEVER going to get a fair system whatever way its done but the gp has to be a better way of finding the worlds best rider surely!! the old system was far more flawed and where 1 bad ride or an ef could stop you progressing and then we always had 5 eastern block riders who more often then not had little or no chance. I remember the days when the BLRC was a far more illustrious line up then the World Final. Sorry but by all means prefer the atmosphere of the one day but to get the best world champ under the fairest qualifying system its gp all day long. only 1 rider shouldnt be their this year, in the one offs you had 4 or 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,040 Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) Who was to know how well NKI and KK would go this year in League matches? Ward had a chance to compete but declined. What are the organisers supposed to do, hold the GPs in November and December and pick the entire field based on League performances? Read what I Posted above. The answer to your question is to run Qualifying Rounds for all Riders who wish to take part. If Riders, as sidney says, don't wish to ride, for whatever reason - they should not be forced to do so. Those who WOULD like to ride in the GP Series SHOULD be given the chance to Qualify............... Are you following me about BeWitcher? Edited December 12, 2012 by The White Knight Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldace 1,678 Posted December 12, 2012 Read what I Posted above. The answer to your question is to run Qualifying Rounds for all Riders who wish to take part. If Riders, as sidney says, don't wish to ride, for whatever reason - they should not be forced to do so. Those who WOULD like to ride in the GP Series SHOULD be given the chance to Qualify............... Are you following me about BeWitcher? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Speedway_Grand_Prix_Qualification Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 12, 2012 Is being placed in 12 rounds (ie) semi finals minimum, harder than say winning 6 rounds? i would say winning six rounds should be a lot more rewarding is it at the moment in it's form.? As for everyone being able to enter the qualifying system everyone has a chance that is a myth.A lot of riders just can't afford it, a lot of young riders i would imagine would love to say enter the under 21s it is just not viable. Travelling to places like Slovenia with no financial help,it is impossible did Joe Haines say that?.The GP series is in affect a closed shop if you have wealthy parents or backers maybe but everyone on the same playing field as years gone by NO. Nonsense. You didn't have to win 6 rounds to become World Champion. Indeed you could come as low as 11th in some rounds. 11th, 8th, 7th, 8th, 7th, 1st, would be enough to be World Champion under the old format. Your arguments against the qualifying are nonsensical. Whether someone can afford to enter qualifying is their own issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Long Eye 278 Posted December 12, 2012 Read what I Posted above. The answer to your question is to run Qualifying Rounds for all Riders who wish to take part. If Riders, as sidney says, don't wish to ride, for whatever reason - they should not be forced to do so. Those who WOULD like to ride in the GP Series SHOULD be given the chance to Qualify............... Are you following me about BeWitcher? I don't think you read and understood the post I quoted TWK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) Read what I Posted above. The answer to your question is to run Qualifying Rounds for all Riders who wish to take part. If Riders, as sidney says, don't wish to ride, for whatever reason - they should not be forced to do so. Those who WOULD like to ride in the GP Series SHOULD be given the chance to Qualify............... Are you following me about BeWitcher? Yes, waiting for you to speak sense. There is qualifying. Riders can enter if they choose to do so. Your claim that some riders will NEVER get the chance to be World Champion is a total falacy. For those quoting NKI.. Darcy Ward etc.. they FAILED to qualify. In fact, they didn't even get to the GP Challenge. Edited December 12, 2012 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,040 Posted December 12, 2012 http://en.wikipedia....x_Qualification Exactly oldace. Top eight places allocated from previous year. Fair - I don't think so. They should ALL have to qualify, even the World Champion. Mauger, 'Briggo' all had to - what makes today's Champion so special. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
