Gazc 7,204 Posted February 8, 2015 Ignoring Glasgow using a rider who dropped 4 points from his average? ;-) The difference that you chose to ignore or may not be aware off is that one was an untried Swede who we knew was no more than a reserve with possible potential whilst the other was a proven performer signed as a No 1 but either chose or couldn't ride like the No 1 he was signed for hardly a comparison is it or are you just ignoring this fact to have a pop. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagpuss 10,855 Posted February 8, 2015 In this kind of situation where a rider has been contracted to a promotion/club for ten years would it not be better to grant a testimonial once he has totalled ten years of riding for that club even if not consecutive? SCB's general point is correct, testimonials are handed out far too readily nowadays. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Al Stewart 398 Posted February 8, 2015 In this kind of situation where a rider has been contracted to a promotion/club for ten years would it not be better to grant a testimonial once he has totalled ten years of riding for that club even if not consecutive? SCB's general point is correct, testimonials are handed out far too readily nowadays. You may not have noticed amongst all the nonsense that Theo Pijper has indeed ridden a total of ten seasons for Edinburgh. I don't think anyone disagrees with the general point, as you call it, but as I said he has chosen the wrong target. Oops sorry I got carried away and got that wrong, it's 8 years for Edinburgh and two on loan to Glasgow plus another part season. Still an entirely deserving case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) You are talking rubbish. It's almost impossible nowadays to do 10 years at one club due to points limits. I would not expect you to have detailed knowledge of Pijper's career but the truth is he has NEVER chosen to be away from Edinburgh, other than after 2006 when he decided to try to move up to the Elite League. When that didn't work out, he was stranded between leagues on an average which made it awkward to return to PL. He only got back in because his average was reassessed after 2010 to a generously low figure. Edinburgh already had their team at that point so he went to Glasgow. His first loyalty is to his family, so he will ride and do his best for whoever offers him a job. He was perfectly happy at Glasgow, of course, but the fact is the only years he hasn't ridden for Edinburgh were years when he wasn't offered a place. Stop re-writing history. Theo rode for Edinburgh for 6 seasons. He then made the choice to go EL with Swindon (so much for loyalty to Edinburgh - you admit yourself "he decided" to leave). He then started a season at Swindon and was dropped, moving to Mildenhall on exactly the same average he had achieved in 2007 at Edinburgh. He then didn't ride in the UK in 2009 or 2010 but signed for Glasgow in 2011 when the rules changed meaning rather than having to sign on his 2007 PL average (of about 7.5 from memory) he could sign on his 4.5 average from his short stint at Mildenhall. He did then retirn for 2 more season at Edinburgh before having last season at Glasgow. There was no awkward average due to riding EL, he moved back to the PL on his PL average. So the reasons I don't think he should have a testimonial? He chose to league Edinburgh in 2008 and then chose not to ride here in 2009 and 2010. How the hell is that 10 consecutive season at a club? I get it's hard to have 10 consecutive season at a club (in the last 10 years the only riders having testimonials who managed that would be Lindgren and Dave Norris form memory) and I think we can all accept a year or two forced out on loan but choosing to take 2 years out and choosing to go EL, he made the choice to league Edinburgh. This is not a dig at Theo, I've complained about many testimonials, they're handed out far too freely. We have about half a dozen each season when in reality, 1 or two should be awarded. Last season Mads K, Joonas Kylmakorpi and Morten Risager all had testimonials. Ketween them they had ridden for 14 teams! Edited February 8, 2015 by SCB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenga 2,998 Posted February 8, 2015 the criteria is simple. he should not have asked for a transfer/moved to another club on his own terms. its 10 years of service to the league. as long as he hasnt withheld his services to the parent club he can have one..olly allen got one because he never asked to leave a club, he was always unable to be fitted in for one reason or another. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted February 8, 2015 the criteria is simple. he should not have asked for a transfer/moved to another club on his own terms. its 10 years of service to the league. as long as he hasnt withheld his services to the parent club he can have one..olly allen got one because he never asked to leave a club, he was always unable to be fitted in for one reason or another. TBF, Olly Allen rode for 2 clubs in his 10 years. Swindon and then Coventry. He even moved up into the EL with Swindon when they went EL - staying loyal to them. Swindon dropped him in late 2004 and he signed for Coventry in 2005 and stayed there until his testimonial. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Al Stewart 398 Posted February 8, 2015 Stop re-writing history. Theo rode for Edinburgh for 6 seasons. He then made the choice to go EL with Swindon (so much for loyalty to Edinburgh - you admit yourself "he decided" to leave). He then started a season at Swindon and was dropped, moving to Mildenhall on exactly the same average he had achieved in 2007 at Edinburgh. He then didn't ride in the UK in 2009 or 2010 but signed for Glasgow in 2011 when the rules changed meaning rather than having to sign on his 2007 PL average (of about 7.5 from memory) he could sign on his 4.5 average from his short stint at Mildenhall. He did then retirn for 2 more season at Edinburgh before having last season at Glasgow. There was no awkward average due to riding EL, he moved back to the PL on his PL average. So the reasons I don't think he should have a testimonial? He chose to league Edinburgh in 2008 and then chose not to ride here in 2009 and 2010. How the hell is that 10 consecutive season at a club? I get it's hard to have 10 consecutive season at a club (in the last 10 years the only riders having testimonials who managed that would be Lindgren and Dave Norris form memory) and I think we can all accept a year or two forced out on loan but choosing to take 2 years out and choosing to go EL, he made the choice to league Edinburgh. This is not a dig at Theo, I've complained about many testimonials, they're handed out far too freely. We have about half a dozen each season when in reality, 1 or two should be awarded. Last season Mads K, Joonas Kylmakorpi and Morten Risager all had testimonials. Ketween them they had ridden for 14 teams! I'm sorry but I know the history a lot better than you do. The only time he made up his mind to leave Edinburgh was to go to the Elite League in 2007. That is what most people would say should be the aim for any PL rider of a decent standard. Unfortunately he lost form and confidence after a month or two in the EL, though he did come back into the Edinburgh team for a short time but got dropped. I did not say he had an EL average, he was stuck on 7.6 from 2006 and that was felt by virtually everyone to be too high for the way he had been riding. He did get a brief run at Berwick but was dropped by them too. In 2008 he had a try at Swindon and then Mildenhall but not enough matches to get a new average. He kept hoping that somehow the rules would change to get him a new average but it didn't happen till post-2010. He did not want to be away from British Speedway in 2009 and 2010 but he wasn't offered a place. I repeat: a Monarch since 2002, other than a failed attempt to go Elite in 2007. Never turned down a place when offered one, would have ridden for Edinburgh or anyone else in 2007-2010 had the chance arisen. No comparison whatsoever with the other names you have mentioned. I'm sure everyone is bored now with this rather sad discussion. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arson fire 4,785 Posted February 8, 2015 Al, would he still have been offered a testimonial had he signed for a club this winter?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rico 210 Posted February 8, 2015 The difference that you chose to ignore or may not be aware off is that one was an untried Swede who we knew was no more than a reserve with possible potential whilst the other was a proven performer signed as a No 1 but either chose or couldn't ride like the No 1 he was signed for hardly a comparison is it or are you just ignoring this fact to have a pop.So you put someone who you know is no more than a reserve at number 1? Quality team building. What is wrong in the whole situation is crap like your former number 1, Dilger, Konopka etc are allowed in below their starting average. The sooner that situation is resolved the less 'sexy' these riders become. My original point was more in relation to your outrage at someone losing 2 points from their average. I assume you are happy with your rider being on a 3, for reasons no more than those of self interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenga 2,998 Posted February 8, 2015 TBF, Olly Allen rode for 2 clubs in his 10 years. Swindon and then Coventry. He even moved up into the EL with Swindon when they went EL - staying loyal to them. Swindon dropped him in late 2004 and he signed for Coventry in 2005 and stayed there until his testimonial. i was only using olly as an example. as long as he didnt withhold his services and never asked for a transfer, he would be granted one. rustyharrison has benen granted one. he has also been loyal to the clubs he rode for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lioness 1,484 Posted February 8, 2015 My original point was more in relation to your outrage at someone losing 2 points from their average. I assume you are happy with your rider being on a 3, for reasons no more than those of self interest. Personally I think there is a big difference between a rider who has attained an actual average and retained similar for a few seasons suddenly lobbing 2 points off it compared to an assessed average rider attaining a true average after the required number of meetings. Im not saying either situation is right or wrong, just that they are not comparable as one has only 'dropped' because of assessment rules, not because he suddenly rode differently or failed to attain previous scoring trends, whilst the others dropped due to a massive nosedive in scoring 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gazc 7,204 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) So you put someone who you know is no more than a reserve at number 1? Quality team building. What is wrong in the whole situation is crap like your former number 1, Dilger, Konopka etc are allowed in below their starting average. The sooner that situation is resolved the less 'sexy' these riders become. My original point was more in relation to your outrage at someone losing 2 points from their average. I assume you are happy with your rider being on a 3, for reasons no more than those of self interest. But we didn't put him at No 1 due to the assessed average he was then the highest in the team average wise whilst the rider signed to be No 1 was riding like a 3 point reserve so not really an argument is there whilst i agree with you in regards to Dilger etc etc your original point to my outrage as you put it at our No 1 losing 2 points is less relevant to an assessed young rider dropping to his level with potential to improve and you are being serious there . Or would you be happy to turn up every week to watch your No 1 pootle round the back more often than not without a care in the world. Why wouldn't we be happy with him being on a 3 that after all is his average the last time i checked which there should be some improvement in or what would you rather we do leave him out and do what he is an asset on a true average and building the strongest team possible is the name off the game and if that is about self interest then were happy, but please let us know why you are so unhappy you had consultation with Mr B by any chance . By the way just checking on the highlighted bit off your post do you know what assessed average means the only problem we had with team building was not HIS ASSESSED AVERAGE it was Wolberts average nosediving anyway can't put it across any easier iil leave this To Edinburgh fan's to discuss Edinburgh you clearly think well I'm not really sure what you are getting at apart from a wind up. Edited February 8, 2015 by Gazc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monarchlad 32 Posted February 8, 2015 Funny how there was none of this cross examination when The testimonial was supposed to be at Glasgow last year.......but now because it is now being staged at the Dale, all he'll breaks loose Get over it Theo has been contracted to Edinburgh for 10 years 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rico 210 Posted February 9, 2015 But we didn't put him at No 1 due to the assessed average he was then the highest in the team average wise whilst the rider signed to be No 1 was riding like a 3 point reserve so not really an argument is there whilst i agree with you in regards to Dilger etc etc your original point to my outrage as you put it at our No 1 losing 2 points is less relevant to an assessed young rider dropping to his level with potential to improve and you are being serious there . Or would you be happy to turn up every week to watch your No 1 pootle round the back more often than not without a care in the world. Why wouldn't we be happy with him being on a 3 that after all is his average the last time i checked which there should be some improvement in or what would you rather we do leave him out and do what he is an asset on a true average and building the strongest team possible is the name off the game and if that is about self interest then were happy, but please let us know why you are so unhappy you had consultation with Mr B by any chance . By the way just checking on the highlighted bit off your post do you know what assessed average means the only problem we had with team building was not HIS ASSESSED AVERAGE it was Wolberts average nosediving anyway can't put it across any easier iil leave this To Edinburgh fan's to discuss Edinburgh you clearly think well I'm not really sure what you are getting at apart from a wind up. So the crux of what you are saying is that because you think you will benefit from Victor's spectacular average drop, all is good? If Wolbert averages where he was, circa 8, yes you will have had the piss ripped out of you, but until he does I would suggest it is pie in the sky. Until then if I was you I would just hope he fails. You may get some satisfaction from that. Or maybe when Victor starts scoring, you can shout from the rooftops ...... Btw just for clarification, I do know the difference between an assessed average and an actual one. Ultimately an average is what it is once it is achieved. There is clearly some hope that certain riders have kept their true abilities under wraps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gazc 7,204 Posted February 9, 2015 So the crux of what you are saying is that because you think you will benefit from Victor's spectacular average drop, all is good? If Wolbert averages where he was, circa 8, yes you will have had the piss ripped out of you, but until he does I would suggest it is pie in the sky. Until then if I was you I would just hope he fails. You may get some satisfaction from that. Or maybe when Victor starts scoring, you can shout from the rooftops ...... Btw just for clarification, I do know the difference between an assessed average and an actual one. Ultimately an average is what it is once it is achieved. There is clearly some hope that certain riders have kept their true abilities under wraps You are spot on with that one. Funny how there was none of this cross examination when The testimonial was supposed to be at Glasgow last year.......but now because it is now being staged at the Dale, all he'll breaks loose Get over it Theo has been contracted to Edinburgh for 10 years Don't think it has anything to do with that regardless off peoples opinion which they are entitled to i am sure both sets off fans will give Theo a night to remember Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
