Kenny Carter Dvd.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Spot on WK.

 

Except I've already demonstrated it wasn't.. "Spot on"

[waiheke1 4,295]

Gb/england was much stronger in the 70s - thats ubdisputed

the bl was stronger thsn the current el - it had more of the worlds top riders for sure, albeit spread over twice the number of teams, but overall I'd agree with this statement, with the rider that its relative to world standards

however, the original statement from sid was that there were more top class riders in the 70s/80s than there sre today. That I've yet to see any genuine argument presented for, and irs definitely not a view I agree with.

[BWitcher 12,453]

You have it spot on Waiheke for sure.

 

More of the worlds top riders rode in the BL as it was then compared to the current EL. The overall teams weren't as strong as appeared as they were spread over more teams as you point out.

 

The BL of the 70's teams are nowhere near the strength of the teams in the Polish and Swedish top leagues.. again this is simply due to the number of teams in the league.

Edited December 23, 2014 by BWitcher

[The White Knight 9,039]

You have it spot on Waiheke for sure.

 

More of the worlds top riders rode in the BL as it was then compared to the current EL. The overall teams weren't as strong as appeared as they were spread over more teams as you point out.

 

The BL of the 70's teams are nowhere near the strength of the teams in the Polish and Swedish top leagues.. again this is simply due to the number of teams in the league.

Forgive me - I thought the discussion was on the British/Elite League - not Sweden and Poland........................

[BWitcher 12,453]

Forgive me - I thought the discussion was on the British/Elite League - not Sweden and Poland........................

 

The discussion was Sidney claiming that the standard of rider was higher in the 70's than now. He then tried to throw in the Elite League to cover up the inadequacies of his argument and to deflect from questions he couldn't answer.

[waiheke1 4,295]

I think Carter was certainly the best visiting rider I saw at Hyde Road...until Gundersen maybe.....firstly it was Olsen, then Carter came along, then Gundersen.....they were definitely the best 3 visitors to Hyde Road in their eras in my view.

 

 

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit?

In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era.

Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point!

Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well.

After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

[arnieg 3,643]

Most of that riders in that era are billed as being better than they were.

 

Had the current format existed I can absolutely GUARANTEE you that many of them you wouldn't have thought anywhere near as highly.

 

The simple facts are the top riders in each team didn't race each other very much, there was no Heat 13 and 15, you rarely saw them get beat and their status of being stars was cemented.

 

I'm far from saying they weren't good riders, because they were but in all eras you always have 2 or 3 riders who stand out from the rest.

The dramatic drop in leading averages following the introduction of fixed gate positions (also in the 80s ) is another factor that strengthens this argument.

[waiheke1 4,295]

The dramatic drop in leading averages following the introduction of fixed gate positions (also in the 80s ) is another factor that strengthens this argument.

from memory that was intoduced the same season (88?) as the nominated heat 15?

[stratton 1,491]

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit?

In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era.

Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point!

Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well.

After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

Carter averaged nearly 11 but it was easier then wasn't it ! no i am only joking!.Briggs,Mauger,Olsen,Collins with Mort,Carter,Gundersen,in the next lot.I often thought what a no1 Carter could of been at Hyde Rd he loved the place.Nielsen took a number of years to master the place he often rode the line in his earlier years.At league level also E.Boocock,Crump,Ashby,Airey should be mentioned they had decent records at Hyde rd.

[EnglishRoundabout 1,752]

Haven't read the whole thread but I watched most of the 70's at Swindon, following the team home and away. I took a 20 year break from the sport before returning in 2006.

 

The things I noticed most were riders not shutting off entering the bends and the lack of full maximums from teams number one riders. Nowadays the number ones do seem to get beaten more often by second strings than they were back in the 70's.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Haven't read the whole thread but I watched most of the 70's at Swindon, following the team home and away. I took a 20 year break from the sport before returning in 2006.

 

The things I noticed most were riders not shutting off entering the bends and the lack of full maximums from teams number one riders. Nowadays the number ones do seem to get beaten more often by second strings than they were back in the 70's.

 

Correct.

 

Back in the 70's a rider could race speedway for the first time one week and within a few weeks be in a team.

 

Never ever happens now.

 

Foreign riders could come in and rack up very high debut season averages, not 6-7 pts, but 8-9 or even higher.. very, very rarely happens now.

Carter averaged nearly 11 but it was easier then wasn't it ! no i am only joking!.Briggs,Mauger,Olsen,Collins with Mort,Carter,Gundersen,in the next lot.I often thought what a no1 Carter could of been at Hyde Rd he loved the place.Nielsen took a number of years to master the place he often rode the line in his earlier years.At league level also E.Boocock,Crump,Ashby,Airey should be mentioned they had decent records at Hyde rd.

 

Yes it was easier. That is a FACT and its been explained to you over and over.

 

His average included bonus pts, he only raced against the opposite number 1 once a meeting in most cases and had pick of starting gate in most cases.

 

Plus the opposite no 1 he is against may be the 14th,15th, 16th best rider in the league etc.. so not difficult if you are one of the top 4 or 5 of the time.

 

None of this says Carter was a bad rider or diminishes from his ability at all.

[stratton 1,491]

Haven't read the whole thread but I watched most of the 70's at Swindon, following the team home and away. I took a 20 year break from the sport before returning in 2006.

The things I noticed most were riders not shutting off entering the bends and the lack of full maximums from teams number one riders. Nowadays the number ones do seem to get beaten more often by second strings than they were back in the 70's.

Alot of those riders around now ER some riding at no 1 are they as the same ilk as Briggs,Mauger,E.Boocock,N.Boocock,Mauger,Olsen,Betts,Moore,McMillan,B.Jansson,T.Jansson,Michanek,Ashby,Simmons,Crump,Wilson,Jessup,Louis,Boulger,Persson,Lofquist,Eide,Sanders,Valentine.I don't need facts and figures those named and i have missed a few were GENIUNE no 1s and they would of been in any era.Today i am not so sure there are that many GENIUNE in out no 1s in the EL maybe i am wrong again and will be shot down just my opinion nothing more nothing less.

Correct.

 

Back in the 70's a rider could race speedway for the first time one week and within a few weeks be in a team.

 

Never ever happens now.

 

Foreign riders could come in and rack up very high debut season averages, not 6-7 pts, but 8-9 or even higher.. very, very rarely happens now.

 

Yes it was easier. That is a FACT and its been explained to you over and over.

 

His average included bonus pts, he only raced against the opposite number 1 once a meeting in most cases and had pick of starting gate in most cases.

 

Plus the opposite no 1 he is against may be the 14th,15th, 16th best rider in the league etc.. so not difficult if you are one of the top 4 or 5 of the time.

 

None of this says Carter was a bad rider or diminishes from his ability at all.

That is where it is a shame, as you put your case certainly to me as a superior one.Thats why i can't debate with you,because you have to be the winner at all costs and has been the trend you carry through most of your posts.My recollection of people who were clearly getting the better of you in whatever debate, mostly just gave up and didnt bother posting again on that topic.I am not bothered if i am wrong no matter if i can learn a bit along the way i am happy. Edited December 24, 2014 by sidney

[EnglishRoundabout 1,752]

What was rare Sid was visiting number ones having a complete nightmare meeting at Blunsdon. For example in recent seasons I recall riders like Zagar, NIcholls, Pedersen and Andersen scoring 4 or 5 points. Can't recall that happening in the 70's. Normally visiting number ones were feared and would produce double figure returns.

[stratton 1,491]

What was rare Sid was visiting number ones having a complete nightmare meeting at Blunsdon. For example in recent seasons I recall riders like Zagar, NIcholls, Pedersen and Andersen scoring 4 or 5 points. Can't recall that happening in the 70's. Normally visiting number ones were feared and would produce double figure returns.

Those examples you have given to me ER says it all, Witcher maybe should have a rethink.Only Zagar for me out of those riders is an in/out no1 Andersen even in his pomp and in a watered down product was borderline.Those riders say it all for me then add Kylmakorki,Watt,Harris,Bjerre, what a difference in quality.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Those examples you have given to me ER says it all, Witcher maybe should have a rethink.Only Zagar for me out of those riders is an in/out no1 Andersen even in his pomp and in a watered down product was borderline.Those riders say it all for me then add Kylmakorki,Watt,Harris,Bjerre, what a difference in quality.

 

Sidney, once again you aren't grasping it are you.

 

ER is giving you examples of WHY you are completely wrong in your assertions.

 

I am going to give you a stone cold FACT here.

 

If this lot rode NOW in the current set up...

 

Briggs,Mauger,E.Boocock,N.Boocock,Mauger,Olsen,Betts,Moore,McMillan,B.Jansson,T.Jansson,Michanek,Ashby,Simmons,Crump,Wilson,Jessup,Louis,Boulger,Persson,Lofquist,Eide,Sanders,Valentine

 

Only 8 of them would be No 1's, and only 3-4 of them would stand out.

 

Another 8 of them would be 7.5-8.5 men and the next 8 would be 7 pt men.

 

Basically riders such as Betts, Ashby, Louis, Sanders would be riders akin to Craig Cook now.

What was rare Sid was visiting number ones having a complete nightmare meeting at Blunsdon. For example in recent seasons I recall riders like Zagar, NIcholls, Pedersen and Andersen scoring 4 or 5 points. Can't recall that happening in the 70's. Normally visiting number ones were feared and would produce double figure returns.

 

Correct, because they had easier rides.

Edited December 25, 2014 by BWitcher