El 2nd Strings - Average Reduction?

[oldace 1,678]

Thought so, no being serious where did you see him ride and what was your opinion of him not taking the mick i do respect your opinion.

I saw Ashby on many many occasions Sid. At hyde Road when he represented Swindon and Exeter and also lots of blrcs. My overriding memory of Crash was the 1975 british final were he narrowly lost a run off for the last place to Ray Wilson. Wilson had fell first time out but ammassed 11 from his other 4 rides, the same as Ashby. Overall i would probably say he was maybe in the top dozen brits of both 60s snd 70s

Edited May 15, 2015 by Oldace

[waiheke1 4,295]

A rider averaging 7 as a second string is performing worse than a heat leader averaging 6 so I see no issue with a system which would reflect that.

[Humphrey Appleby 13,983]

And no one understands duckworth lewis but its by fat the best system cricket has had.

At least until the new Duckworth-Lewis-Stern method was introduced...

 

A rider averaging 7 as a second string is performing worse than a heat leader averaging 6 so I see no issue with a system which would reflect that.

Well yes and no. The reserve is actually scoring more points (assuming the same number of rides) so is performing better in terms of the match situation, but the heat leader has harder rides so might be considered to be performing better in relation to the reserve. However, unless you award different points for different heats (e.g. Heat 15 is worth with than Heat 2), then you can't truly compare performances other than on the basis of what points riders actually contribute to the match score.

 

Getting back to averages, I think the problem is that when you start tinkering with the relatively straightforward way in which averages get calculated, then it's actually no longer an average but a rider rating or something similar. That's fine for the purposes of the points limit which does not directly correspond with match scores anyway, but calling it an average just introduces confusion because it doesn't directly reflect a rider's scoring across the matches they've ridden in.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Humphrey Appleby 13,983]

Back to Matt Ford's suggestion regarding reducing second string averages by 20% does that not defeat the object of a second string getting up to heat leader standard in someway. And also the higher the second strings average is the more it reduces with the use of percentages.

 

Fraud's suggestion as it stands is pure nonsense, and of course motivated by self-interest. The only way of doing it sensibly, as others have pointed out, is to take the performances when actually riding as second-string, and then assess the particular strengths of the heats they rode in. However, it then doesn't produce an average but a rating.

 

Where does it all end though? I could be argued that No. 11 in cricket scoring 10 runs is a better performance than a No. 1 scoring 10 runs because they usually have less time to do it, and on a more worn pitch. Equally though, they normally don't have to face the new ball, or opening bowlers when they're fresh. 10 runs still count the same towards match score though, whoever scores them, and both players are still credited with 10 runs...

[stratton 1,491]

I saw Ashby on many many occasions Sid. At hyde Road when he represented Swindon and Exeter and also lots of blrcs. My overriding memory of Crash was the 1975 british final were he narrowly lost a run off for the last place to Ray Wilson. Wilson had fell first time out but ammassed 11 from his other 4 rides, the same as Ashby. Overall i would probably say he was maybe in the top dozen brits of both 60s snd 70s

I went to the 75 British Final and i would think there were at least 15000 there it was packed.In the run off he should of been hard on Willy but he was just to fair i was a Wilson fan so the defeat was not hard to take.Overall Ashby underachieved similar to Phil Crump the moments that stick out for me was Crash winning the Superama, the BLRC ( with Briggo helping him should of beat Olsen) and the 1975 WTC.When i believe he won the big second half the Victor Lodorum trophy also beating the late great Jansson in one leg of the GH was a huge achievement as Jansson was a certain WC in the making great days.

[TheCookster 57]

A rider averaging 7 as a second string is performing worse than a heat leader averaging 6 so I see no issue with a system which would reflect that.

 

Sorry, I don't get that at all. Surely all it shows is that the second string with the higher average than the other team's heat leader is simply riding for a team that has a stronger, more successful top end.

Edited May 16, 2015 by TheCookster

[TheCookster 57]

Colour key for this illustration Red Heat Leaders Blue Second Strings Yellow EDR or Reserves. Please note these are not riders helmet colours.

First heat match ups are old thirteen heat format plus one extra reserve race and nominated heat.

Second heat match ups on the right is the current format.

With colour it is easy to see which heats and pairings that seem to be unbalanced. Some heats from old format and present format can be cancelled out.

Not saying that either format is right or wrong but old format seems a bit better balanced out with no need to have a points deduction. Therefore averages should be that more easy to calculate.

 

Can anyone explain to me why there is a need to have a 20% reduction from all second string riders in this example.

7point average rider with 20% reduction would have an average of 5.60. 4point average rider with 20% reduction would have an average of 3.20.

Why should the 7point rider have a more points reduction than the 4point rider using a %.

Surely it would be better to take a point or two equally of all second string riders 16 of them at the moment.

 

Now if you open the gap between heat leaders and second string riders then does that not make a mockery of second string riders moving above heat leaders in the averages ie in the case of Joonas Kylmakorpi and Danny King at Coventry. And also Chris Holder at Poole dropping from the top of there averages to fourth. If you open the points gap up then would that mean that heat leaders and second strings would have to stay in there respective riding positions all season long without no movement?. Again how do you decide which points in the averages are as a heat leader or second string.

Seems to be more questions than answers in my view with this at the moment.

 

 

 

Absolutely! As I said in my original post on this topic (#3) the proposal by Matt Ford strikes me as being very messy and potentially riddled with inconsistencies.

 

Over the course of a full season averages give a reasonably accurate picture of the riders' performances relative to the other riders they competed in the same league with. To start trying to deliberately tinker with those averages strikes me as inviting more problems than you would ever solve, some of which have already been highlighted by posters on here.

 

Presumably, the promoters who voted this down would have done so, because they were also aware of the problems it would create, so in this instance I think they made the right decision.

[Humphrey Appleby 13,983]

Presumably, the promoters who voted this down would have done so, because they were also aware of the problems it would create, so in this instance I think they made the right decision.

I doubt they're that astute. Probably just didn't understand the proposal.

[Skidder1 7,662]

I doubt they're that astute. Probably just didn't understand the proposal.

They at least thought they understood it as they increased the team building limit by 2 points as the best alternative?!?

[The White Knight 9,039]

This Thread is too complicated for me. :blink: