Gerhard Engine

[mac101 1,201]

Clubs or the bspa owning engines will never happen it's too expensive for a start and why should they its the riders equipment to supply and maintain themselfs if they can't afford it then chuck it in and get a proper job like they did years ago when it was a hobby where you arranged around days off and hoildats , most clubs struggle every year and i don't think they can afford another expense ,Clubs need to kept a tight budget and live within that budget rather than give riders what they want offer what you can afford if he says no move on to the next one but every club needs to do it that way the promotors will eventually have the upper hand rather than the rider it will be better for clubs this year with so many riders not having team place with the rule changes and I have even been told a good few clubless riders are asking for less than they got last year just so they can get a team spot rather than miss out

[Gresham 928]

Clubs or the bspa owning engines will never happen it's too expensive for a start and why should they its the riders equipment to supply and maintain themselfs if they can't afford it then chuck it in and get a proper job like they did years ago when it was a hobby where you arranged around days off and hoildats , most clubs struggle every year and i don't think they can afford another expense ,Clubs need to kept a tight budget and live within that budget rather than give riders what they want offer what you can afford if he says no move on to the next one but every club needs to do it that way the promotors will eventually have the upper hand rather than the rider it will be better for clubs this year with so many riders not having team place with the rule changes and I have even been told a good few clubless riders are asking for less than they got last year just so they can get a team spot rather than miss out

And it's that sort of thinking that is killing this sport. With respect...you haven't touched on the issue of reducing engine and running costs. you can't just say...'if you can't afford it...tough'.

 

Speedway has hardly got any riders as it is.

[f-s-p 832]

And it's that sort of thinking that is killing this sport. With respect...you haven't touched on the issue of reducing engine and running costs. you can't just say...'if you can't afford it...tough'.

 

Speedway has hardly got any riders as it is.

Now that you've given me something to pick up on...

 

...and thats it's biggest problem, lack of riders. Because there arent enough, stupid rules hav to be written that everyone can ride everywhere. And when they get injured, hsit hit's the fan. Build from the ground up, but put the focus on increasing the number of riders. By doing that, you get new people in to the sport, new connections, new money, new volunteers... Especially this last sentence needs to happen quick, as the people that are currently keeping this boat afloat are getting old, tired and eventually broke...

[Tsunami 10,219]

Now that you've given me something to pick up on...

 

...and thats it's biggest problem, lack of riders. Because there arent enough, stupid rules hav to be written that everyone can ride everywhere. And when they get injured, hsit hit's the fan. Build from the ground up, but put the focus on increasing the number of riders. By doing that, you get new people in to the sport, new connections, new money, new volunteers... Especially this last sentence needs to happen quick, as the people that are currently keeping this boat afloat are getting old, tired and eventually broke...

Quite correct and the BSPA know it. With more Brits, less need for training foreign riders and therefore less DU"s and guests.

There is plenty going on in speedway to achieve the increase in Brit riders. Increased training sessions, British Youth Championships, Poultec schooling, MDL, NJL, Protected team positions and amended match formats, Training days, second half's, etc. Problem is they are all drip feed, but they WILL eventually start producing riders to replace the foreign riders. They have already started to come through from the initial good work of Neil Vatcher and Phil Morris, but in fairness you are needing probably say 4 years before you get a decent middle order team man.

[Rich 75]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

[mac101 1,201]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

 

they won't need to worry they old GM,s that everybody used to use will be so cheap riders will be giving them away

[Gresham 928]

Gresham, if all the engines are owned by the clubs, how will new riders break into the sport ?

Good question...I'd suggest as an Amateur you would buy an engine like a basic JAWA comes now. Plus in the interim, there would be plenty of used engines around that riders would want to sell on.

 

Riders that break into the sport wouldn't be riding for teams straight away. They would have to do their time developing in Grasstrack and National League.

 

I'd suggest National League could be run similar to now. But still trying to find a way of keeping costs down.

 

Riders moving up a league after development would be able to sell their equipment on to the next generation of riders.

 

Anyone taking up the sport would have to fork out to start with, but it doesn't have to be silly money.

 

Plus the NL should only be seen by promotors as a development league...not for certain riders to try and make a living in. Purely development.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't have problems, but so many seem to want to find ways of it not working, rather than looking at ways of making it work.

 

Lets face it...when a rider breaks into the sport, if he gets a team birth anywhere...he sells a lot of his equipment on and 'upgrades' again so as to compete. So it wouldn't make any difference.

[Vince 9,458]

You do a deal of exclusivity. Paid in instalments. It doesn't need to be JAWA, but they are the only manufacturer I know that produce engines, assembled straight from the factory and have the means to do it. Call it the Premier 'JAWA' league or whatever...with Sky TV, they would love the exposure I'm sure. Make it a long term contract and it's worth their while.

 

 

The riders pay would come down considerably. More would be gone towards buying 'Club Engines'...the rider would not have the cost of buying engines or maintaining them. A good percentage of riders costs go on this. Don't look at GP riders as examples...but your average Club rider. It's a different world for them. Plus more and more riders aren't getting paid by Clubs. So many are owed money. When you speak to mechanics and riders alike, or their sponsors, you hear the real story and not what you are led to believe in the media...it's far worse than many think.

 

 

There will always be if's and but's...unfortunately the people who have been involved in Speedway for many years, the majority of the BSPA, have become blinkered and will always find a reason not to change. The sooner these people are out of speedway, the better...they are ruining Club Speedway, as they are so set in their ways. The younger Generation of Promotors will, I believe, have the courage to change...as they can see outside the box and the problems we have now.

 

It's a bit like the BREXIT vote...people voted for change, but there was no policy in place as to how it will work.

 

You sometimes just have to find ways of making it to work for the better, and overcome the obstacles, instead of continually finding reasons not to change.

 

Of course there would be hiccups...but it can't be any worse than it is now.

 

Club Speedway is struggling...the average rider struggles to survive. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again, when it's clear to see it isn't working?

 

But given the very limited production runs of Speedway engines using only one manufacturer would very likely put the other out of business. There might be the rest of the Speedway world and a very minimal Grasstrack sales but British Speedway must be a very significant part of GM's business. As soon as Jawa have a monopoly do you really believe that their engines won't rise in price?

 

It's all well and good saying you have to find a way to make it work but that is because you believe this to be the answer, those of us who don't are entitled to explore the possible pitfalls and alternatives.

 

Start with the pitfalls:

Clubs are barely surviving so for them to suddenly spend quite considerable sums on engines isn't really very practical at this time. Don't forget it is no good having 14 engines because some will be away for service and you have to allow for breakdowns etc. Presumably the clubs supply ignitions and carbs as well.

 

Who services these engines and won't their prices rise once the other tuners have packed it in?

 

What happens to all the engines riders are currently using? As a cost cutting measure reducing the main assets of the competitors to scrap value overnight isn't going to be very helpful.

 

It doesn't matter how carefully they are assembled there will be a performance differential in the engines.

 

What happens when a rider gets hurt because of an engine failure, is the club liable?

 

There must be other issues that actually need looking at rather than saying "this is a good idea we need to find a way to make it work"

 

In my opinion the single engine idea could only work if you got somebody like Rotax involved who aren't dependant on Speedway.

 

 

Alternatives:

 

For my money the best is the rev limiter with a gradual lowering of the limit year on year. I think there are numerous benefits the big one for me being that it would reduce the ever shorter stroke/light flywheel engines that have come in. I firmly believe they cause more problems for riders than the silencers ever do.

Encouraging the introduction of longer stroke engines with heavier flywheels would also future proof against the inevitable lowering of noise limits in years to come. Also a very easy item to police.

 

Flywheel weight and or minimum stroke limits would, I believe, help a great deal but would be incredibly difficult to police.

 

Then there is the question of just how much of a saving does any of this actually represent to the riders. On here it's become the latest cause that could save the sport but how much are we actually talking about per rider? If you take an average PL rider and say he does approximately 100 heats per year league matches. I'm out of date with prices but lets assume that it's about £500 for a service and double that for a full rebuild. 50 heats between services that is £15 per heat per rider on servicing costs. For sure its quite a lot of money but its a lot less than it takes to run the van to get you to meetings or than you are likely to lose taking time off work. In reality reducing rider costs by £1500 per season isn't going to save the sport.

 

If it's not about costs but providing better entertainment then I have three suggestions.

 

Run a short practice so everybody gets to start with a good set up.

 

Let the losing side have the pick of gates 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 every race.

 

Prepare tracks to give good racing rather than home advantage, although fans have to take the bulk of the blame for that as it has been seen many times how a winning side brings in more spectators than good racing does.

[Gresham 928]

 

But given the very limited production runs of Speedway engines using only one manufacturer would very likely put the other out of business. There might be the rest of the Speedway world and a very minimal Grasstrack sales but British Speedway must be a very significant part of GM's business. As soon as Jawa have a monopoly do you really believe that their engines won't rise in price?

 

It's all well and good saying you have to find a way to make it work but that is because you believe this to be the answer, those of us who don't are entitled to explore the possible pitfalls and alternatives.

 

Start with the pitfalls:

Clubs are barely surviving so for them to suddenly spend quite considerable sums on engines isn't really very practical at this time. Don't forget it is no good having 14 engines because some will be away for service and you have to allow for breakdowns etc. Presumably the clubs supply ignitions and carbs as well.

 

Who services these engines and won't their prices rise once the other tuners have packed it in?

 

What happens to all the engines riders are currently using? As a cost cutting measure reducing the main assets of the competitors to scrap value overnight isn't going to be very helpful.

 

It doesn't matter how carefully they are assembled there will be a performance differential in the engines.

 

What happens when a rider gets hurt because of an engine failure, is the club liable?

 

There must be other issues that actually need looking at rather than saying "this is a good idea we need to find a way to make it work"

 

In my opinion the single engine idea could only work if you got somebody like Rotax involved who aren't dependant on Speedway.

 

 

Alternatives:

 

For my money the best is the rev limiter with a gradual lowering of the limit year on year. I think there are numerous benefits the big one for me being that it would reduce the ever shorter stroke/light flywheel engines that have come in. I firmly believe they cause more problems for riders than the silencers ever do.

Encouraging the introduction of longer stroke engines with heavier flywheels would also future proof against the inevitable lowering of noise limits in years to come. Also a very easy item to police.

 

Flywheel weight and or minimum stroke limits would, I believe, help a great deal but would be incredibly difficult to police.

 

Then there is the question of just how much of a saving does any of this actually represent to the riders. On here it's become the latest cause that could save the sport but how much are we actually talking about per rider? If you take an average PL rider and say he does approximately 100 heats per year league matches. I'm out of date with prices but lets assume that it's about £500 for a service and double that for a full rebuild. 50 heats between services that is £15 per heat per rider on servicing costs. For sure its quite a lot of money but its a lot less than it takes to run the van to get you to meetings or than you are likely to lose taking time off work. In reality reducing rider costs by £1500 per season isn't going to save the sport.

 

If it's not about costs but providing better entertainment then I have three suggestions.

 

Run a short practice so everybody gets to start with a good set up.

 

Let the losing side have the pick of gates 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 every race.

 

Prepare tracks to give good racing rather than home advantage, although fans have to take the bulk of the blame for that as it has been seen many times how a winning side brings in more spectators than good racing does.

Some good points made fella...I did however say many times in this thread, that it wouldn't be easy and there would be questions to be solved. There would be many...however the whole point of the exercise, is to reduce costs and also stop the daily tinkering on engines by riders and tuners, looking to find that little edge. Time and money wasted in the big picture of things.

 

JAWA and GM are pretty much the only manufacturers used regularly in Speedway...neither would suffer as riders would still want to buy engines for Individual events. They won't have the funds coming from Clubs to finance their individual racing, so would have to find ways of supporting their Individual riding career. Why have Club speedway finance Individual gain?

 

As for Clubs affording engines...I've covered that twice in previous posts above.

 

Employ the tuners available now...how many are there? Spread the costs.

 

Your next point I have covered again regarding selling on current equipment...or most likely it would be kept and used for their Individual events.

 

Differences in engines? Of course...but there is now...no one is on equal ground. You draw lots.

 

Riders would sign a liability document, like in many other sports. I have to when ski racing.

 

As for the rest of your post...yes there are some good ideas there...however I don't think the rev limiter is the answer. How will a rev limiter stop riders tinkering with engines trying to make them go faster? How will it stop them putting in materials that are lighter and not as strong? It won't.

[Sings4Speedway 3,247]

Quite correct and the BSPA know it. With more Brits, less need for training foreign riders and therefore less DU"s and guests.

There is plenty going on in speedway to achieve the increase in Brit riders. Increased training sessions, British Youth Championships, Poultec schooling, MDL, NJL, Protected team positions and amended match formats, Training days, second half's, etc. Problem is they are all drip feed, but they WILL eventually start producing riders to replace the foreign riders. They have already started to come through from the initial good work of Neil Vatcher and Phil Morris, but in fairness you are needing probably say 4 years before you get a decent middle order team man.

 

Spot on ad yet the amount of support offered to the few who go the extra mile is limited. Those who want to organise MDL/NJL teams for example have to pay full price every year for SCB registrations, there can only be a limited amount of competitive 2 half heats run before the referees deem it to be a double header meeting and demand double pay. Referees charge for each of the youth rounds they attend.

If the SCB/BSPA want to get behind the future of the sport they should be looking a subsidising some of the many fee's incurred by volunteers, how much hardship would it be for each referee to take one youth round and officiate over it for free or at least just travel expenses.

These are not big sweeping changes but they might just help keep the die hard bands of volunteers who do things for the pure love of the sport going that little bit longer.

[Vince 9,458]

Some good points made fella...I did however say many times in this thread, that it wouldn't be easy and there would be questions to be solved. There would be many...however the whole point of the exercise, is to reduce costs and also stop the daily tinkering on engines by riders and tuners, looking to find that little edge. Time and money wasted in the big picture of things.

 

I agree that it is a possibility and worth investigating but I do think you are tending to ignore the problems because you think it is the answer. Equally I am undoubtedly making some of the problems worse than they need to be because I'm not convinced it's the way forward.

 

 

As for Clubs affording engines...I've covered that twice in previous posts above.

 

Employ the tuners available now...how many are there? Spread the costs.

 

Your next point I have covered again regarding selling on current equipment...or most likely it would be kept and used for their Individual events.

 

You have but I don't think you're right

 

If you employ all the current tuners how are you going to make sure all the engines are as equal as possible? It can only really work if you use a very limited number of mechanics and the same checking equipment. For example Moto2 engines all come from the same workshop and are checked on the same dyno, I believe that in the karting series that run sealed engines there are a very limited number of engine builders allowed to work on the motors.

 

Very few riders can afford or will want to run completely different equipment for the few individual meetings. Grasstrack is dying on it's arse and you won't lose a dozen engines a year to that. However you look at it those engines are scrap value.

 

 

Riders would sign a liability document, like in many other sports. I have to when ski racing.

 

You can take this as 100% gospel, liability waivers aren't worth as much as the paper they are written on, it's just a hope that some people will assume they are and not take legal advice.

 

 

As for the rest of your post...yes there are some good ideas there...however I don't think the rev limiter is the answer. How will a rev limiter stop riders tinkering with engines trying to make them go faster? How will it stop them putting in materials that are lighter and not as strong? It won't.

 

Seems to me that current thinking is to get engines to rev higher and higher by shortening the stroke and lightening flywheels, if you can't rev them there is no point carrying on down that route. Same with lightweight parts although there are some other benefits it's often in the chase to gain revs that they are fitted.

 

Since the first motorcycle was made they tinkered with it trying to make it faster. Since the second one was made they started racing them and had to tinker more to beat the other guy!!

 

If they can't tinker with the engines they will produce more expensive ignitions and clutches and carbs and more adjustable frames and so on. The only way I can see to keep the price of machinery down is a claiming rule where if you win a race anybody can buy your bike at the end of the meeting for £x therefore ensuring you make sure it's never worth more than that. has been done in other motorcycle sports but there have always been issues and problems around it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Vince

[Humphrey Appleby 13,960]

I believe that in the karting series that run sealed engines there are a very limited number of engine builders allowed to work on the motors.

Depends on the class. I'm not a fan of the sealed classes as you're charged a premium for a service agent just to even look at the engine, and everyone knows some of the engines are still more equal than others. If it's not agents putting selected parts in the engines (which is perfectly legal), then it's the outright cheating some have indulged in for favoured drivers.

 

I also can't check someone hasn't whipped the decent parts out of my engines to put in a favoured client's.

 

The alternative is building engines to a fiche, but still doesn't stop putting selected parts in.

[mac101 1,201]

Riders tinkering with there engine will always happen no matter what type of engines they use and it's not the fastest engine that is the best in fact if it's too fast the rider will go backwards it's the rider that makes the decisions so that he can get the setup right on the day for that particular shape /size condition of track with changing everything from a tooth in the rear sprocket to the length of the bike ,clutch plates springs ,ignition, jet size tyre pressure get that right and your half way there to winning that's why most riders keep a note of what works best so most riders will have the basic set done up in their workshop before they get to the track then change it as the track. Changes durning the meeting , most riders will have a couple engines probably more than a couple each if they can afford it some work better on certain types of track and the tinkering on the day is not normally to get it to go faster it's to get the power on the ground and get the setup right I have not heard many rider this year complain about costs if riders were to turn up and pick one engine from 14 pretty sure they would all chuck it after all it's the riders that pay the tuners to maintain them not the promotion Coming from a motocross background speedway is a lot cheaper for sure

 

Speaking tonight at the Glasgow tigers fans night was Simon stead and he was taking about Gerhard engines and costs and said a good few elite and pl riders have tried them and don't like them And until the top GP riders use them they won't take off

Edited November 26, 2016 by mac101

[f-s-p 832]

And until the top GP riders use them they won't take off

Basic copycat mentality in all motorsport. If yourr not as good as Tai, buy his gloves, leathers, engine or carb and you will improve. But naturally you wont as you are hsit and you wont improve without practising over and over again...

[barncooseboy 237]

IF a ref fails for some reason to get to a league meeting the Clerk of the course is empowered to take over as ref.

To reduce costs for junior meetings why not have the COTC replace the SCB Ref for those races and meetings.

something is nagging me that says this used to be done.