Grachan 7,381 Posted June 22, 2015 Kind of strange that Coventry fans seem to be making most noise on this, when their team is probably more guilty than any about average manipulation over time. Anyway, averages are there to be used to your advantage so if Swindon did do any - which I doubt - then good for them. It's frustrated me in the past when such opportunities have presented themselves and we haven't taken advantage of them. My own feeling is, though, that I don't think rosco is the type of manager to look into the finer points of the averages and work out such small margins as are being spoke about here. In fact, if it wasn't for SCB's original posts I doubt anyone would have even noticed this. Certainly not the local paper that is now reporting it. Looking at the stats on the Swindon side then yes. But using my numbers then no. Weird how despite checking over and over I have different numbers to the official Swindon site! So if you - the sports self proclaimed stats expert - can't quite work it out, how come Rosco and Troy Bachelor can? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted June 22, 2015 Kind of strange that Coventry fans seem to be making most noise on this, when their team is probably more guilty than any about average manipulation over time. When Coventry/Harris fiddled at the end of 2007 I spoke out against it. It's not like I've condoned/defending my own team doing it. Unlike Poole fans I am able to see when my club is in the wrong and say so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,381 Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) When Coventry/Harris fiddled at the end of 2007 I spoke out against it. It's not like I've condoned/defending my own team doing it. Unlike Poole fans I am able to see when my club is in the wrong and say so. To be honest, when Tim Sugar was manager of Reading he was the expert at getting the most out of the rules and I always admired him for it. The only time I've really had a problem with it is when the paying public are cheated by a team just chucking the match away from the start. That's taking things a bit too far. But if rules are there to be taken advantage of then go for it, I say. I'd do it. Edited June 22, 2015 by grachan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thecoombdog 2,373 Posted June 22, 2015 When Coventry/Harris fiddled at the end of 2007 I spoke out against it. It's not like I've condoned/defending my own team doing it. Unlike Poole fans I am able to see when my club is in the wrong and say so. Serious question here cos I abandoned speedway for a few years. What happened in 2007? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reliant Robin 492 Posted June 22, 2015 So if you - the sports self proclaimed stats expert - can't quite work it out, how come Rosco and Troy Bachelor can? Exactly my thoughts....I think people are giving Rosco a little too much credit in the stats department on this occasion. Still, it keeps people talking 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Serious question here cos I abandoned speedway for a few years. What happened in 2007? There was talk of a rule for 2008 that teams could only have 1 rider with an average over 8. So in one of Coventrys last meetings (maybe even last meeting), having already finished top of the league, Chris Harris had 2 EFs and then in heat 12 was well ahead before Danny King of Peterborough made up loads of ground. Bomber ended the season on an average 7.97 - that was convenient! edit> It was the last but one meeting. As against Eastbourne at home the next day Chris kept sitting behind his team mates. But in heat 12 Morten Risager (riding for Eastbourne) had an EF, so Chris had to come out in heat 15, despite having not been that good, and had to finish 3rd to get his average down. all very dodgy and as a fan paying good money to watch, very annoying! Exactly my thoughts....I think people are giving Rosco a little too much credit in the stats department on this occasion. Still, it keeps people talking TBF, I imagine Swindon calculate their averages after every meeting so are able to compare them to the greensheets. If they find a discrepancy they'd question it with the BSPA - I just assume that one of us has made a mistake and move on. Edited June 22, 2015 by SCB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,381 Posted June 22, 2015 TBF, I imagine Swindon calculate their averages after every meeting so are able to compare them to the greensheets. If they find a discrepancy they'd question it with the BSPA - I just assume that one of us has made a mistake and move on. The way averages have a hold on the port you would expect managers to do this. However, I'm not convinced that all of them do. Although, with the current situation at Swindon and the look for a number one I guess they are more likely to be doing so at the moment than at other times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thecoombdog 2,373 Posted June 22, 2015 There was talk of a rule for 2008 that teams could only have 1 rider with an average over 8. So in one of Coventrys last meetings (maybe even last meeting), having already finished top of the league, Chris Harris had 2 EFs and then in heat 12 was well ahead before Danny King of Peterborough made up loads of ground. Bomber ended the season on an average 7.97 - that was convenient! edit> It was the last but one meeting. As against Eastbourne at home the next day Chris kept sitting behind his team mates. But in heat 12 Morten Risager (riding for Eastbourne) had an EF, so Chris had to come out in heat 15, despite having not been that good, and had to finish 3rd to get his average down. all very dodgy and as a fan paying good money to watch, very annoying! TBF, I imagine Swindon calculate their averages after every meeting so are able to compare them to the greensheets. If they find a discrepancy they'd question it with the BSPA - I just assume that one of us has made a mistake and move on. Bit dodgy but very clever! At least you are honest when you see it. I would be the same if I thought it happened the other night but I just cant see any rider stopping where Batch did as it's just dangerous. If something dodgy was going on and he decided to stop where he did then he's an idiot for 2 reasons! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted June 22, 2015 Bit dodgy but very clever! At least you are honest when you see it. I would be the same if I thought it happened the other night but I just cant see any rider stopping where Batch did as it's just dangerous. If something dodgy was going on and he decided to stop where he did then he's an idiot for 2 reasons! I certainly hope it's all genuine. Because with betting on the sport becoming more and more widespread it could have serious implications that wouldn't be good for anyone! Imagine finding out you had bet on a rider who was throwing away points I guess you could then argue that if you have bet on Swindon to win the league, you expect them to do all they can to win the league and if that means "massaging figures" then it possibly needs to be done. I have no issue with some "massaging", if I was a team manager for a start I'd be telling all my riders that when the rider directly behind them is a draft rider, let him pass you to keep your average down. To me, thats just common sense. Team doesn't lose points but it keeps your average down. Unless of course the rider was a work permit rider, then I'd be making sure he got that first. So there should be some manipulation but I only see this as being akin to team riding (I remember once betting on Leigh Adams and the silly bugger sat behind David Ruud all race!!). I guess it's quite sad that I have become so cynical because I have seen teams do it in the past and that we all know Poole did it in 2009 and I think it was 2004 when they finished top of the league and then lost at Oxford and BV about 65-25! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thecoombdog 2,373 Posted June 22, 2015 I certainly hope it's all genuine. Because with betting on the sport becoming more and more widespread it could have serious implications that wouldn't be good for anyone! Imagine finding out you had bet on a rider who was throwing away points I guess you could then argue that if you have bet on Swindon to win the league, you expect them to do all they can to win the league and if that means "massaging figures" then it possibly needs to be done. I have no issue with some "massaging", if I was a team manager for a start I'd be telling all my riders that when the rider directly behind them is a draft rider, let him pass you to keep your average down. To me, thats just common sense. Team doesn't lose points but it keeps your average down. Unless of course the rider was a work permit rider, then I'd be making sure he got that first. So there should be some manipulation but I only see this as being akin to team riding (I remember once betting on Leigh Adams and the silly bugger sat behind David Ruud all race!!). I guess it's quite sad that I have become so cynical because I have seen teams do it in the past and that we all know Poole did it in 2009 and I think it was 2004 when they finished top of the league and then lost at Oxford and BV about 65-25! I can say 100% the first Batch EF was genuine as I was stood on that corner and you could hear the bike go. Everyone standing there would say the same thing. I had moved by the 2nd one so couldn't say whether that was the same. But like you say we have all seen it happen in the past so you automatically assume everyone is at it. Leigh was the king of team riding so I didn't once do a total points bet on him! Too much of a team man to make people like you and me rich!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theblueboy 960 Posted June 22, 2015 Nothing like a good conspiracy theory. The bottom line is nobody knows whether Swindon have finally found the Fat Maud rulebook or not (Chapter 1 - Skullduggery - could be quite long tho' ). I think cheating in any sport is disgraceful no matter how you dress it up and if Swindon are guilty then we should have the rulebook (not Fat Maud's because Chapter 1 is massive) thrown at us. However, that said I didn't think to myself I was watching an average manipulating performance. Belle Vue gave Swindon a gating lesson - it's as simple as that. Only North and Zengi looked like they had a clue. Batchelor had ample time to blow an engine or do a 'Holder' by pulling wheelies at the back but I doubt he is stupid enough to do it with 3 riders immediately behind him. That's asking for trouble. As for betting SCB - people bet on horses and dogs all the time and will continue to do so. We know its bent and horses and dogs win when they are given the right circumstances. Speedway is easy to make money out of if you have half a brain. The Adams scenario you highlight was something my brother and I loved particularly when he was with someone off gate 3 or 4 who he could shepherd round. Many an oi oiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on bend 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foreverblue 6,155 Posted June 22, 2015 When Coventry/Harris fiddled at the end of 2007 I spoke out against it. It's not like I've condoned/defending my own team doing it. Unlike Poole fans I am able to see when my club is in the wrong and say so. When have i condoned any of Poole's dubious fiddling tactics? If i think they have done something wrong or underhand i say so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted June 22, 2015 When have i condoned any of Poole's dubious fiddling tactics? If i think they have done something wrong or underhand i say so.OK, most Poole fans. Especially starman! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpecialOne 68 Posted June 23, 2015 Hearing rumours that this result is being looked into. Seems I'm not the only one who is highly cynical! Rumours are rumours and usually started by your drivel pal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 15 Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Rumours are rumours and usually started by your drivel pal 21 posts, 3 4 of them attacking me, and one more attacking someone else. I'm not sure you get this discussion forum thing. At least I post when it's a rumour and don't post things as facts when they're not. Edited June 23, 2015 by SCB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
