The Greatest Riders

[Guest]

1989/16

H Nielsen

S Ermolenko

Jo Pedersen

P Jonsson

G Havelock

M Loram

T Rickardsson

J Crump

L Adams

G Hancock

B Hamill

N Pedersen

T Gollob

J Hampel

A Jonsson

N K Iversen

T Woffinden

C Holder

D Ward

E Sayfutdinov

 

The holiday period is now over and its time to "get back to business." This last debate on this thread concerns the era from 1989-2016. Above I quote the first suggestion in regard to this period. More lists would be appreciated.

I am not sure if the list provided by Andrew is an actual RATINGS or just riders who he feels should be considered?

:::: The latest era previously discussed was for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment please? This is a list (also submitted by Andrew) for this period. Again, I am unsure if it is a RATINGS or a CONSIDERATION LIST. But it's certainly interesting to see the names put forward.

69/88

I Mauger

O Olsen

Pe Collins

M Lee

D Jessup

C Morton

S Wigg

K Tatum

K Carter

P Crump

B Sanders

S Moran

K Moran

B Penhall

D Sigalos

S Ermolenko

H Nielsen

E Gundersen

Jo Pedersen

T Knudsen

Edited December 29, 2016 by Guest

[BL65 658]

Speedway Star published an interesting article headed 'THE BEST FIVE EVER!' on December 23rd 1961. The top riders in speedway up to that time were nominated by John Hyam, editor of the Star.

 

The achievements of the five nominated riders ,Vic Huxley, Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Ove Fundin and Basse Hveem, were described. Highlights referred to included Huxley winning 9 individual meetings each carrying a £100 prize in 1930, Parker being a top rider for over 20 years, Fundin likely to be voted top world ranking rider for the 5th time in 6 years in a forthcoming World Ratings Chart and Duggan's phenomenal early post war form.

 

Vic Duggan's record in 1947 was quoted from the 1948 Stenners Annual, when in league, cup, London Cup, National Trophy, British Riders' Championship, match races, tests and other races he won 297 out of 348, with 39 second places, 3 third places and 1 fourth place, failing to finish the other 8 races. This record excluded any bonus points. Vic scored 3 bonus points, the first when guiding the previously point-less Buck Whitby to a last heat 5-1 to secure a draw against Wimbledon, the next when also finishing second to Whitby in another meeting against the Dons and the third in the last meeting of the season at Bradford, when finishing third behind Jack Biggs. Including bonus points, from those records Vic accumulated 975 points in the season at a CMA of 11.21.

 

The impressive exploits of Basse Hveem were also referred to, although John Hyam acknowledged that his inclusion would be bound to arouse a certain amount of controversy, mainly due to his limited number of appearances in Britain, which included a few meetings for West Ham in 1953, World Championship meetings and representative matches. Some of Basse's achievements elsewhere were covered in the article, including his winning of the 1937 Norwegian Championship when he was 15 years old, 6 other Norwegian titles, 'many Scandinavian and European titles', as well as rave reviews from Dutch and South African correspondents. In one of his few meetings for West Ham Basse top scored at Norwich, when as reserve he recorded 5 race wins and set the fastest time of the meeting before suffering machine failure in the nominated riders race. Bryan Tungate, the Norwich historian, described the performance as 'magic'. He also showed a liking for the Poole track, winning a World Championship qualifying round and scoring 17 points from 6 rides for Overseas against Britain in an international match.

 

Records now show that Basse actually won at least 8 Norwegian titles, the first in 1938 (350cc), the next in 1940 (500cc) and then 6 more between 1947 and 1953, missing out in 1950. Records for 1946 are unclear, one source shows that the Norwegian title was won by Hveem and another indicates that the champion was Leif Samsing. Basse was Nordic (also referred to as Scandinavian) champion for 5 successive years between 1948 and 1952, as well as being crowned European Champion in 1953, beating Olle Nygren into second place at Kumla. He won 8 Norwegian long track titles between 1947 and 1957 and 8 Nordic (Scandinavian) long track championships between 1946 and 1957. A crash in South Arica in 1955 virtually ended his speedway career and he took up car racing in 1958.

 

'Basse' was actually a nickname, his real name being Leif Ole Hveem. His record was certainly impressive, but when people are considering whether a rider from that era can be judged as one of the greatest they tend to be overlooked unless they have had a prolonged run of success on British tracks or in the World Championship.

Edited December 30, 2016 by BL65

[Guest compost]

Based on averages from matches raced for Official Team Competitions (i.e. Cup, League, Trophy etc) the top 20 in each of the OP's categories come in at -

 

1929-1948

Matches CMA
Jack Milne 142 10.31
Eric Langton 381 10.02
Wilbur Lamoreaux 144 9.99
Jack Parker 458 9.76
Bill Kitchen 377 9.70
Vic Huxley 236 9.69
Bluey Wilkinson 348 9.56
Dick Case 310 9.49
Harold (Ginger) Lees 239 9.39
Cordy Milne 141 9.32
Tom Farndon 244 9.14
Max Grosskreutz 277 9.12
Vic Duggan 189 9.09
Arthur Jervis 78 9.06
Syd Jackson 215 8.84
Frank Charles 278 8.73
Eric Chitty 247 8.71
Ron Johnson 482 8.69
Frank Arthur 139 8.61
Lionel Van Praag 350 8.58

 

(Sorry about formatting issues). Not all scores are known for the period 1929-1939 and several seasons had a point scoring of 4-2-1 which skews the averages a bit. Number 21 was Joe Abbott BTW. Cut off was a minimum of 75 matches (match totals include challenges).

 

1949 to 1968 comes in as -

 

Matches CMA
Ove Fundin 303 10.54
Ronnie Moore 469 10.14
Eric Boocock 162 10.09
Charlie Monk 159 10.03
Peter Craven 388 9.95
Bjorn Knutsson 182 9.93
Vic Duggan 85 9.91
Jack Young 252 9.90
Ivan Mauger 166 9.74
Ken McKinlay 442 9.72
Olle Nygren 317 9.65
Sverre Harrfeldt 228 9.61
Brian Crutcher 239 9.54
Barry Briggs 589 9.54
Gote Nordin 126 9.54
Anders Michanek 71 9.40
Alan Hunt 252 9.33
Geoff Mardon 167 9.23
Bernt Persson 74 9.18
Colin Pratt 195 9.01

 

Minimum of 70 matches needed.

After Duggan the next highest placed pre-war rider was Norman Parker in 23rd place. All CMA includes bonus points.

Edited December 30, 2016 by compost

[norbold 7,135]

Quoting Huxley as winning nine £100 trophies in 1930 is an interesting one because in 1928, there was a whole series of Grand Prix type events of their time, such as the Golden Helmet, the Golden Gauntlet, the Silver Sash and so on that the top riders rode for throughout the season. There were eight of these altogether and by the end of August, Frank Arthur was leading in seven of them, with Huxley leading just one, the Silver Wheel. Unfortunately, Arthur had to return home to Australia in early September, allowing Huxley to catch up and pass him in three of those Arthur was leading in. But, even with Arthur not taking part in a number of the events, he had still accumulated enough points to finish as champion in the main four trophies.

Frank Arthur was definitely the man of 1928 and it would seem before in Australia. Largely forgotten now of course, his reign as top man came too early.

[Andrew 125]

 

 

 

I am not sure if the list provided by Andrew is an actual RATINGS or just riders who he feels should be considered?

:::: The latest era previously discussed was for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment please? This is a list (also submitted by Andrew) for this period. Again, I am unsure if it is a RATINGS or a CONSIDERATION LIST. But it's certainly interesting to see the names put forward.

 

 

Both are Consideration lists if that helps.As I'm abit younger than most of the posters on this thread,my 69/88 list contains more late 1970's and 80's riders.

[Guest]

Both are Consideration lists if that helps.As I'm abit younger than most of the posters on this thread,my 69/88 list contains more late 1970's and 80's riders.

 

Your lists as quoted in message 181 December 28 was top class Andrew and a much-needed stimulant to help progressing this thread along. Thank you.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

CALCULATED ON SUBMISSIONS SO FAR: These are how the 'Greatest Riders' are placed in the first two eras that have been debated.

:::: The latest era discussed is for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment for this era please?

 

1929-48:

(1) Jack Milne

(2) Wilbur Lamoreaux
(3) Eric Langton
(4) Jack Parker
(5) Vic Huxley

(6) Bill Kitchen
(7) Bluey Wilkinson
(8) Dick Case
(9) Ginger Lees
(10) Cordy Milne
(11) Max Grosskreutz
(12) Tom Farndon
(13) Joe Abbott
(14) Frank Charles
(15) Lionel Van Praag
(16) Syd Jackson
(17) Frank Arthur
(18) Tommy Croombs
(19) Jack Ormston
(20) Sprouts Elder

1949-1968:

(1) Ove Fundin

(2) Ronnie Moore

(3) Eric Boocock

(4) Charlie Monk

(5) Peter Craven

(6) Bjorn Knutsson

(7) Vic Duggan

(8) Jack Young

(9) Ivan Mauger

(10) Ken McKinlay

(11) Olle Nygren

(12) Sverre Harrfeldt

(13) Brian Crutcher

(14) Barry Briggs

(15) Gote Nordin

(16) Anders Michanek

(17) Alan Hunt

(18) Geoff Mardon

(19) Bernt Persson

(20) Colin Pratt

Edited January 14, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

:::: The latest era discussed is for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment for this era please?

[Guest]

CALCULATED ON SUBMISSIONS SO FAR: These are how the 'Greatest Riders' are placed in the first two eras that have been debated.

:::: The latest era discussed is for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment for this era please?

 

1929-48:

(1) Jack Milne

(2) Wilbur Lamoreaux

(3) Eric Langton

(4) Jack Parker

(5) Vic Huxley

(6) Bill Kitchen

(7) Bluey Wilkinson

(8) Dick Case

(9) Ginger Lees

(10) Cordy Milne

(11) Max Grosskreutz

(12) Tom Farndon

(13) Joe Abbott

(14) Frank Charles

(15) Lionel Van Praag

(16) Syd Jackson

(17) Frank Arthur

(18) Tommy Croombs

(19) Jack Ormston

(20) Sprouts Elder

1949-1968:

(1) Ove Fundin

(2) Ronnie Moore

(3) Eric Boocock

(4) Charlie Monk

(5) Peter Craven

(6) Bjorn Knutsson

(7) Vic Duggan

(8) Jack Young

(9) Ivan Mauger

(10) Ken McKinlay

(11) Olle Nygren

(12) Sverre Harrfeldt

(13) Brian Crutcher

(14) Barry Briggs

(15) Gote Nordin

(16) Anders Michanek

(17) Alan Hunt

(18) Geoff Mardon

(19) Bernt Persson

(20) Colin Pratt

 

I have had what seems a valid PM query in regard to the placings for 1929-48 - that Vic Duggan, despite his superlative pos-war form has not been included, yet when he was losing the off-peak form (slightly) for the 1949-68 period gets a fairly high rating.

It is my opinion, but I would appreciate other views, that the list for 1928-49, which was based on overall member submissions, should be replaced by the rating as submitted in message 183 by Compost. In providing his list Compost explained: "Based on averages from matches raced for Official Team Competitions (i.e. Cup, League, Trophy etc)" He also had a criteria that a rider should have competed in a minimum 70 matches:

1929-1948

(1) Jack Milne

(2) Eric Langton

(3) Wilbur Lamoreaux

(4) Jack Parker

(5) Bill Kitchen

(6) Vic Huxley

(7) Bluey Wilkinson

(8) Dick Case

(9) Harold (Ginger) Lees

(10) Cordy Milne

(11) Tom Farndon

(12) Max Grosskreutz

(13) Vic Duggan

(14) Arthur Jervis

(15) Syd Jackson

(16) Frank Charles

(17) Eric Chitty

(18) Ron Johnson

(19) Frank Arthur

(20) Lionel Van Praag

Edited January 14, 2017 by Guest

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

For me Gustix it is nearly impossible to compile top 20 lists for those two era's. (ie) i have not seen nearly all of those riders so to pick by research only is a no/no.I will say though out of those two era's named i would be happy with the No 1s i have chosen 1929/48 1.VIC HUXLEY 1949/68 1.OVE FUNDIN.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[Guest]

:::: The latest era to be discussed is for 1969-88. From the excellent rider lists so far submitted, has any member managed to devise a collective assessment for this era please?

But to go 69-98:
Mauger nielsen olsen penhall gundersen Collins rickardsson lee Hamill ermolenko

 

 

MY TOP 20 (1969/88)( No order)Briggs,Olsen,Mauger,Michanek,Lee,Collins,Nielsen,Gundersen ,Penhall,Ermolenko,Simmons,P.Crump,Carter,S.Moran,T.Jansson,Sanders,Sigalos,Autrey,J.O.Pedersen,R.Wilson. If i had a guess i recon out of the 20 i named Sanders,Sigalos,R.Wilson,Carter,Autrey might not be in some peoples list.

 

 

There would be only minor changes to the top of the order. Because I have totalled points over a 20 season period Ivan scores a low total. The period up to the end of the National/Provincial Leagues in 1964 saw him ranked well outside the top 10, as did his injury hit season in 1965. I feel that Ivan's real breakthrough year was 1967, before he finally hit the top in 1968. A similar exercise for the 20 year period from 1969 onwards would almost certainly see him at the top of the pile.

 

1. Ove Fundin 50+9 = 59

2. Barry Briggs 48+10 = 58

3. Ronnie Moore 50+7 = 57

4. Peter Craven 44+4 = 48

5. Jack Young 43+1 = 44

6. Bjorn Knutson 41+2 = 43

7. Brian Crutcher 31+1 = 32

8. Ken McKinlay 28+3 = 31

9. Gote Nordin 29+1 = 30

10. Igor Plechanov 27+0 = 27

 

 

1969-1988

1. Ivan Mauger
2. Hans Nielsen
3. Ole Olsen
4. Bruce Penhall
5. Eric Gundersen
6. PeterCollins
7. Mike Lee
8. Anders Michanek
9. Dave Jessup
10. Kenny Carter
11. Barry Briggs
12. Malcolm Simmons
13. Shaun Moran
14. Soren sjosten
15. Jan Oswald Pedersen
16. Phil Crump
17. Chris Morton
18 Dennis Sigalos
19. Tommy Knudsen
20. Bengt Jansson

 

 

:::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me.

 

The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:

​Ivan Mauger

Egon Muller

Barry Briggs

Bengt Jansson

Ole Olsen

Billy Hamill

Peter Collins

Sam Ermolenko

Bjorn Knutsson

Kenny Carter

Hans Nielsen

Dave Jessup

Erik Gundersen

Simon Wigg

Bruce Penhall

Bobby Schwartz

Michael Lee

Billy Sanders

Jan O Pedersen

Bo Petersen

 

 

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)...

 

1 - Barry Briggs

2 - Ole Olsen
3 - Ivan Mauger
4 - Anders Michanek
5 - Erik Gundersen
6 - Hans Nielsen

7 - Peter Collins

8 - Kenny Carter

9 - Shawn Moran
10 - Bruce Penhall

11 - Michael Lee

 

All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988.

 

12 - Malcolm Simmons

13 - Billy Sanders

14 - Dave Jessup

15 - Dennis Sigalos

16 - Phil Crump

 

These five were named by two of the three voters.

 

17 - Scott Autrey
18 - Chris Morton

 

Both received a single vote.

 

19 - John Louis
20 - Eric Boocock

 

My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever.

 

Steve

 

 

When I said "BL era", I meant the years 1965-1990...

 

My list for that would be (in no order):

 

1 - Ivan Mauger
2 - Barry Briggs
3 - Bruce Penhall
4 - Ole Olsen
5 - Hans Nielsen
6 - Erik Gundersen

7 - Phil Crump
8 - Nigel Boocock

9 - Ken McKinlay

10 - Peter Collins

11 - Eric Boocock

12 - Michael Lee

13 - Malcolm Simmons

14 - Anders Michanek

15 - Kenny Carter

16 - Torbjorn Harrysson
17 - Gote Nordin

18 - Ray Wilson
19 - Dave Jessup

20 - Jim Airey

 

Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten.

 

Steve

 

 

 

69/88

I Mauger

O Olsen

Pe Collins

M Lee

D Jessup

C Morton

S Wigg

K Tatum

K Carter

P Crump

B Sanders

S Moran

K Moran

B Penhall

D Sigalos

S Ermolenko

H Nielsen

E Gundersen

Jo Pedersen

T Knudsen

 

Re: 1969-88:

As the thread is now rather expansive, dealing as it does for four selected eras, I have (hopefully) quoted all previous comments by members in regard to this era in the hope the selections offered will help to making the definitive selection for the period. Have fun!

What we are looking for a definite overall Top 20 selection for the 1969-88 era. Thank you.

TBH - the task looks like a mega-job for member BL65!

:::: NOTE: If you have made a submission for 1969-88 and I have not placed it please add it as a quote. Thank you.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

It has been suggested to me that a definition in regard to 1969-88 is fairly simple: to use a voting system based on the riders already nominated. That is a downwards tabulation of 20 votes for a No.1 rating down to one vote for a No.20 rating.

Does any member - with a calculating system? - fancy the task? I am sure the overall result would be much appreciated! -

Edited January 15, 2017 by Guest

[waiheke1 4,295]

How about this then for 69-88. The top 9 riders were unanimously picked by all 5 people that contributed a list. The next 6 were selected by 4 out of 5, and the final 5 received 3 nominations.

Only one person (yours truly) lranked the riders in order, so within those three categories I've used my own discretion to rank them. Open to suggestions on re-ordering. The only main anomlay in my view is that Anders Michenek should be higher, but as he was not a unanimous nomination (and he was in fact only included by gustix as a replacement for two removed riders) i have included him only as "top" of the riders whjo received 4 nominations:

 

1 I Mauger 2 H Nielsen 3 O Olsen 4 B Penhall 5 E Gundersen 6 P Collins 7 M Lee 8 K Carter 9 S Moran 10 A Michanek 11 D Jessup 12 B Briggs 13 J Pedersen 14 D Sigalos 15 P Crump 16 M Simmons 17 C Morton 18 T Knudsen 19 S Ermolenko 20 B Sanders

 

Possible people could rank the above list from 1-20, and from that we could re-order?

[norbold 7,135]

Can't really disagree too much with your order, waihe, except that, as you also say, I would move Anders Michanek up to 7. I think I would also move Malcolm Simmons up to 14.

[steve roberts 9,247]

How about this then for 69-88. The top 9 riders were unanimously picked by all 5 people that contributed a list. The next 6 were selected by 4 out of 5, and the final 5 received 3 nominations.

Only one person (yours truly) lranked the riders in order, so within those three categories I've used my own discretion to rank them. Open to suggestions on re-ordering. The only main anomlay in my view is that Anders Michenek should be higher, but as he was not a unanimous nomination (and he was in fact only included by gustix as a replacement for two removed riders) i have included him only as "top" of the riders whjo received 4 nominations:

 

1 I Mauger 2 H Nielsen 3 O Olsen 4 B Penhall 5 E Gundersen 6 P Collins 7 M Lee 8 K Carter 9 S Moran 10 A Michanek 11 D Jessup 12 B Briggs 13 J Pedersen 14 D Sigalos 15 P Crump 16 M Simmons 17 C Morton 18 T Knudsen 19 S Ermolenko 20 B Sanders

 

Possible people could rank the above list from 1-20, and from that we could re-order?

Not a bad list (and I realise that it's based on previous personal contributions on this thread) but I wouldn't have put Malcolm Simmons that far down. Considering he had been second in the World, Best Pairs Champion on three occasions and World Team Cup winner on numerous occasions as well as British Champion (when it meant something). I personally would place him above the likes of Carter, Moran and Sigalos.

Edited January 26, 2017 by steve roberts